Posted on 02/07/2017 4:11:31 PM PST by 2ndDivisionVet
If I ever get captured and threatened with torture it will take about five seconds for me to give up every secret I have. That’s because I know I would break eventually, so why put up with unnecessary torture?
I assume the same is true for the lightly-trained ISIS fighters. Some are just teenagers. Once the bravery-inducing drugs in their system wear off, I have to assume that at least some of them – if not most – would become quite flexible under the threat of torture, not to mention the torture itself.
But won’t they lie?
Well, in many cases the secrets they reveal under torture can be easily checked. If they tell you ISIS has a munitions storage area somewhere, you can go check it out. If they tell you there are ISIS troops massing somewhere, you can fly a drone over and take a look.
And if you learn that the prisoner lied? More torture, I assume, and probably worse than the first time. So lying about things that can be verified is a bad strategy for a captive.
Some things can’t be verified. But sometimes you have two prisoners. See if their stories match up. That would help.
My point is that common sense, combined with everything you know about human beings, tells you that torture works, at least in some cases. It would work on me. It would work on you. It would certainly work on under-trained ISIS prisoners.
So why do the experts say torture doesn’t work?
The answer can be found in the Persuasion Filter. Torture is persuasion, but so is the way you talk about it. If you promote me to the rank of General, put me on television, and ask me if torture works, do you know what I’ll say?
I’ll say it doesn’t work.
I’ll say I can get more cooperation by being nice. I will look you in the eye and lie my ass off. Because that’s my job.
As a military General, my job is to keep my troops safe. So I will lie about the effectiveness of torture for several reasons:
1) An enemy might someday capture my troops. I don’t want the enemy to think torture is a practical option.
2) I don’t want the enemy to know their captured soldiers will be giving up their secrets to my side in under five seconds.
3) I don’t want to tarnish the brand of the United States or the military by associating it with torture.
4) I don’t want to go to jail. Torture is illegal.
So the ideal approach for an “expert” on torture is to say in public that it never works while finding ways to skirt the law and use it anyway when needed. Waterboarding, for example, was an attempt to stay legal while still “torturing.”
Keep in mind that for every “expert” on television that says torture never works, there are lots of “experts” around the world using the method every day. I doubt they would use if it it NEVER worked. After all, they are the experts.
This brings us to President Trump. He says with surprising candor that he believes torture works but will follow the recommendation of his generals who say it doesn’t.
Interpretation: Torture works. The generals know it. We’ll find a way to do it if necessary to keep the country safe. You don’t want to know the details.
We like to believe that experts are more credible than non-experts. And President Trump is no expert on torture. But keep in mind that President Trump is a Master Persuader who can detect bulls**t faster than normal people.
You might even call him an expert at detecting bulls**t.
When President Trump presents something as fact, the odds are high that it is hyperbole or just persuasion. You don’t want to assume his facts are literally true, although they are usually emotionally or directionally true.
But if President Trump – The Master Persuader – tells you someone else’s facts are bulls**t, you can usually take that to the bank. The man knows bulls**t when he sees it. And with his skillset he can also smell it coming from miles away.
On an unrelated topic, when you see President Trump disagreeing with the experts on climate change, you assume he has no credibility. He’s not an expert in the field. But he does know bulls**t when he sees it. And I think he believes the prediction models are unlikely to be accurate. (As do I.) The prediction models are not science, per se. They are persuasion disguised as science via the process of conflation and association. And Trump knows persuasion.
Trump could be completely wrong about climate change. So could I. But when the Master Persuader calls bulls**t on something, be cautious about betting against him.
Another outstanding post, T Y...
This guy is good, but he doesn’t know much about torture.
If you are not harder than the next guy, or the guy before, and give up right away...you can expect it to continue indefinitely.
Tell everything they want to know just make sure none of it is true.
The Persuasion Filter Looks at Torture. Does it Work?
Hang the clintons and obama upside down and set them on fire and see if they admit to their crimes.
The entire paradigm of “torture” is just ridiculous.
Waterboarding was first done by the US during the Philippine Insurrection. By WWII, “truth serum” was all the rage. Since then, the US pharma industry has created entirely new classes of drugs at blinding speed. Pretty amazing ones.
There are now drugs 100,000 times stronger than pure morphine.
Other drugs that can block the bodies pain receptors to its potent natural painkiller endorphines.
Our hallucinogens are legendary.
Yet other drugs that magnify psychological states beyond human experience. Abject terror, unconditional love, uncontrollable paranoia, tranquility and peace, blind rage, you name it.
So, waterboarding? C’mon.
Added to these things we have psychological conditioning, hypnosis natural and drug assisted, we can surgically insert objects, be they communications devices, trackers, poisons, or very high explosives.
The sky is the limit if you are determined enough. So why *only* use a technique more than 100 years old? What other hundred year old technologies are still in use, unchanged? Maybe some musical instruments.
“Torture is worthless as a criminal interrogation technique, you can make almost anyone confess to anything eventually, whether true or false.”
If you have information to give up, torture works. If you don’t then it doesn’t. That simple.
That's the key - two or more people. Both will tell everything, lies, truth,whatever they think you want to know - - massive word salad - - what matches will be truth.
That said torture should stay illegal. If it's absolutely necessary hopefully the Uniform Code of Military Justice will go lightly on the person making the call.
I’ve been waterboarded when I worked on SERE. I don’t consider it torture.
My brother was waterboarded when he was in SERE... said it worked on him, he gave me up, our folks, the family cat, and pretty much anything else.
They also tried this thing where they slapped around a female fellow prisoner to get him to talk - trying to take advantage of the male chivalry thing... now, that didn’t work.
Said he got a glimpse of some seriously intense dirty looks from her, though.
You might he interested to read the book Enhanced Interrogation, by James Mitchell. KSM was broken in three weeks, became cooperative, and was never tortured again. Done right, it works. Done badly it only hardens the subject.
I have been waterboarded. And trained to resist.
If there are multiple persons being “interrogated”, you want to be too much work for what little they get.
They’ll get it from the other guy.
If you’re the only one, you’re screwed. May as well take Dilberts route. Eventually they’ll get what they want. No man can resist the waterboard when properly applied. No man.
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