Concealed Carrier Robbed of Gun in Philadelphia

Gun Watch ^ | 20 August, 2015 | Dean Weingarten

[marktwain]

In this screenshot, the robber has the pistol, which appears to be a semi-auto.  The robber is closest to the counter.  The red arrow points to the pistol.

It happened on August 17, 2015.  The concealed handgun carrier was robbed of his handgun in a strong arm robbery.  The story illustrates one of the disadvantages of concealed carry.  Concealed carry gives up tactical deterrence.   The robber did not know that the concealed carrier was armed, so he was not deterred from attacking him.  In this case, the element of surprise was to the advantage of the robber. 

The police statement.

 

The start of the attack.  The robber is very close.
 

 Two or three seconds into the attack.  The holstered pistol is on the floor.  It is not clear if an attempt to draw was made.   Both men fall down and wrestle on top of the pistol.  It is not clear if they know that it is there.
 

The combatants have broken apart and moved away from the counter.  You can see the holstered pistol on the floor between the mat and the base of the counter.
 

The attacker sees the pistol on the floor and goes for it.  He successfully retrieves it and manages to draw it  as shown in the top frame.

The victim counter attacks and keeps from getting shot.  The attacker runs out of the store with the pistol, pursued by the victim.

Link to video

Both open carry and concealed carry have advantages.  Sometimes one option works better than the other.   People use both options at the same time.  People should be able to choose which option they prefer, and make choices as they see fit.

Much has been made of two open carriers who robbed of their guns in the last decade.  One of those occurred where the open carrier's gun was required to be unloaded by law.  There have been two unsuccessful attacks on open carriers.

Concealed carriers have also been attacked, and have been successfully robbed of their guns.  This is the second instance so far this year.  The first occurred in April.  If an attacker believes you to be unarmed, you are more likely to be attacked.   People have recognized that reality for centuries.

Two hundred years ago, Thomas Jefferson quoted Cesare Beccaria's Essay on Crimes and Punishment.   Here is the English translation:

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one."

Most defensive gun uses are not against other people armed with guns.  Most are against strong arm robberies, such as this one, or attacks with hands and feet or contact weapons such as knives and clubs.    According to FBI data, about one in five (21%) of aggravated assaults were committed with firearms.  About two in five robberies (41%) were committed with firearms.

Successful attacks against armed people are rare, against either concealed or open carriers.   They are so unusual that they make the news.

The examples reinforce the wisdom of having a retention system of some sort on a firearm holster, if simply for retaining the pistol during a fall or violent movements, such as may occur in an accident or during exercise.  Retention during a fight is even more important.

Situational awareness can prevent many of these attacks before they start.  Situational awareness is important whether open carrying, concealed carrying, or going about unarmed.


©2015 by Dean Weingarten: Permission to share is granted when this notice is included.
Link to Gun Watch

[marktwain]

If the bad guys do not know you are carrying a weapon, they cannot be deterred by it. It is why Monorch butterflys are brightly colored, and rattlesnakes rattle.

[Crazieman]

Have a huge personal space.

Keep it loaded, and if the neighborhood necessitates it, chambered.

[Tupelo]

First Last and Always.

Situational Awareness

Especially at places like the DMV when renewing your drivers license and the sign on the door says “No Firearms Allow”. Scary Place.
Sit in the back, constantly turning your head while in the long long line, never let anyone too close, just keep moving around, stand sideways at the counter to avoid giving them access to your blind side, Etc.

[BigCinBigD]

“if the neighborhood necessitates it, chambered”

A unloaded gun is useless. It’s a damned club. The second you waste racking the slide to charge the pistol is the second you may die.

Anyone not comfortable carrying a gun with a round in the chamber has no business owning a weapon.

[Erik Latranyi]

It is important to note that the entire holster fell out, not just the firearm. Holsters that use your belt are superior as the firearm will stay with you until pulled from the holster. A retention system for the pistol adds another layer of protection.

Secondly, while liberals will claim this is why we should not have concealed carry, nearly 25% of all police officers shot are shot by their own sidearm.

[MeneMeneTekelUpharsin]

Situational Awareness

Exactly what I was thinking. Also, I would KNOW my gun fell off, my mind would be on it during such a fight as I would be trying to reach for it. That's another thing I don't understand about this incident. How does the guy end up that far away from where he was attacked?

[marktwain]

“nearly 25% of all police officers shot are shot by their own sidearm.”

It used to be about 20-25% a couple of decades ago.

I do not have the latest number, but it has dropped a large amount.

I do not recall the last time that an officer was shot with his own gun, but it does happen.

[rarestia]

It is important to note that the entire holster fell out, not just the firearm.

In every tactical firearm handling class I've ever taken, the instructors always say something to the tune of, "the holster is more important than the gun." They also mention that keeping the gun close and tight to your body is critical. The bad guys often learn disarming techniques from convicts in the prison system and parolees in the bad neighborhoods.

If you have a shitty holster or one that falls out of your pants, your gun isn't going to come out of the holster when it needs to or it's going to come out when you don't want it to.

I personally always recommend Aker leather. Love their holsters.

[marktwain]

“A unloaded gun is useless. It’s a damned club. The second you waste racking the slide to charge the pistol is the second you may die.”

That is true. But in this case, if he had not had a round chambered, the robber probably would not have got a shot off.

[NorthMountain]

Keep it loaded, and if the neighborhood necessitates it, chambered.

My opinion:

If it isn't chambered, it isn't loaded.

If it isn't loaded, its a not very efficient club.

It doesn't matter what kind of neighborhood you're in. If you're carrying a pistol, carry it loaded. Always.

IMHO

[Cobra64]

Absolutely!

[BigCinBigD]

The robber should have been dead.

[Resolute Conservative]

Situational awareness trumps all. If he had been open carrying and let some get that close (from behind especially) a bottle to the head and the perp gets the gun anyway.

Stupid reasoning and poor skills on part of holder.

[marktwain]

“Situational awareness trumps all. If he had been open carrying and let some get that close (from behind especially) a bottle to the head and the perp gets the gun anyway.”

Only if the perp has the intestinal fortitude and desire to take on an armed man.

Most don’t, and I have not seen any successful attacks on open carriers in this country.

It could happen of course. But I have not seen one documented in the United States.

[Resolute Conservative]

Not trying to be macho, but if you are open carrying and I am standing behind you that close I will bet I can get your weapon. Do not let anyone get that close to an open weapon. That is why LEO’s are trained to always stand back and profile their weapon side away from any person they are contacting, that is one of my main points of irritation when I see officers not following that simple rule.

[Secret Agent Man]

This is a no win argument.

If you ccw they say theres no obvious deterrent.

If you open carry and are targeted and attacked for your weapon, they say its because they saw it and targeted you for your weapon.

[bestintxas]

For every CC that is robbed of gun, there are dozens who do great service in protecting themselves and others.

[Leaning Right]

It is important to note that the entire holster fell out, not just the firearm.

That's the key point here. So it seems to me that this is not an open vs. concealed carry situation. It's a keep-your-firearm-secured situation.

[marktwain]

“For every CC that is robbed of gun, there are dozens who do great service in protecting themselves and others.”

It is more like millions.

There are about 12-15 million people with concealed carry permits. I have only documented a few that have been attacked and had their gun stolen.

It is probably about 2 million to one for the ratio.

For open carry, it is likely about the same. We do not know how many people open carry, because most states do not require a permit, and there are only five states that prohibit it in most public places.

So these instances are extremely rare.

I would like to see all Second Amendment supporters adopt a version of the Reagan Doctrine.

All legal carriers are exercising their Second Amendment Rights, and all should be supported.

[JohnnyP]

I don’t own a gun, but how about open carrying an unloaded gun, at the same time you are concealed carrying one with a round in the chamber?

Let the robber grab your unladed gun, then nail him.