Posted on 04/08/2013 7:14:00 AM PDT by Cold Case Posse Supporter
“Wonderful! First, I like CDR Kerchner, or preferably Mario Apuzzo, to explain the Fed Rules of Civil Procedure to me and others with regard to presenting evidence with a complaint in a civil suit.”
Why does it have to be Mario to explain it to you? Why can’t you just call a local criminal and civil attorney to have it explained to you? Therefore you would have your answers in probably a much quicker time frame.
“The current state dept foreign affairs manual 7 FAM 1292 i) 2) says minors under 16 are not to be regarded as capable of renouncing nationality.”
The FAM is a policy and procedures manual to dictate the current administrations policies. Note the part of FAM you’re quoting was revised after Obama took office.
Furthermore, it is a comment on the revocability of a CLN issued to a minor. Obama could have returned to the U.S. and revoked his CLN anytime before 6 months after his 18th birthday.
Congress and the Courts do not have Constitutional authority to dictate terms on the forfeiture of citizenship. Only the Executive Branch can dictate terms on citizenship forfeiture. However, Congress and the Courts do have Constitutional authority to dictate terms on revocability after a CLN is issued.
FAM 7 1292 is a reference to the fact a minor may revoke their CLN for any unspecified reason. The current administration has issued policy guidance it won’t issue a CLN to a minor because of that reason. Afroyim v. Rusk was ruled on by SCOTUS in 1967. Rusk understood the ruling was to revocability and not a ruling to terminate his ability to issue CLNs without formal renunciation proceedings. Obama was issued a CLN at this time with the understanding he could revoke the CLN for any reason.
“Of course they stated that Obama is a NBC and that he was born in Hawaii. There is no other way of reading that statement without throwing logic out the window.”
No, it is called understanding legal filings.
No, they did NOT claim Barry WAS NBC or that he WAS born in HI. IANAL, but I speak from knowledge of preparing numerous pro se lawsuit answers and reading numerous answers prepared on my behalf by lawyers.
Again, the purpose of an “answer” is to avoid a default judgment in favor of claims made by the plaintiff that are not “answered.” An answer sufficient to defeat a default judgment is a mere denial of the claim. A denial is not an assertion of a claim.
If you read the answer, the defendants DO make some counter claims which they “aver” (see legal term of art definition below). The claims that DHS and DHS “aver” are claims that they have direct knowledge of, such as receipt of letters from Strunk and whether a statute says this or that.
Maybe I missed it, but DOS and DHS do NOT affirmatively “aver” that Barry IS NBC or that he WAS born in HI. If they did not do so, why is that? I suspect that it is because they do not have direct evidence or statutes or case law to support such claims in support of Barry.
See Aver:
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Aver
“To specifically allege certain facts or claims in a Pleading.”
It needs to be explained publicly because a number of people, like you, think a civil suit cannot be filed with supporting proof.
The Fed Rules of Civil Procedure are establish for participates who have integrity and honor. Consequently, allegations in a civil suit are assumed to be true until successfully defended.
You never know. Obama may stipulate he was naturalized in 1983 and then proceed with a defense theory natural born citizenship status cannot be lost with the issuance of a CLN, i.e. a citizen at birth is a natural born citizen for life. I believe a CLN cancels your natural born citizenship status.
You have thrown curiosity out the window.
The allegations that you seem to want to see happen, will never get past the clerk. It would be deemed a fishing expedition at best.
Judge, I believe Barry naturalized in 1983. I have zero proof of this and in fact, I only heard about it on the internet. I therefore need you to order discovery, pronto."
Denied - lack of standing.
Oh, and the plaintiff that went on such a fishing expedition - your fined 50K by the court.
Sven, I copied this from FAM 7 1292:
i. Renunciation of U.S. citizenship and minors:
(1) Consult CA/OCS/ACS: Whenever you receive a request to renounce from a minor you immediately must contact CA/OCS/ACS. CA/OCS/ACS will not approve a Certificate of Loss of U.S. Nationality (CLN) for a minor without the concurrence of CA/OCS/L, and appropriate consultation with L/CA;
(2) Voluntariness and intent: Minors who seek to renounce citizenship often do so at the behest of or under pressure from one or more parent. If such pressure is so overwhelming as to negate the free will of the minor, it cannot be said that the statutory act of expatriation was committed voluntarily. The younger the minor is at the time of renunciation, the more influence the parent is assumed to have. Even in the absence of any evidence of parental inducements or pressure, you and CA must make a judgment whether the individual minor manifested the requisite maturity to appreciate the irrevocable nature of expatriation. Absent that maturity, it cannot be said that the individual acted voluntarily. Moreover, it must be determined if the minor lacked intent, because he or she did fully understand what he or she was doing. Children under 16 are presumed not to have the requisite maturity and knowing intent;
(3) Interviewing a minor: When conducting the initial interview with a minor and during the renunciation procedure, you should have at least one other person present. The parents and guardians should not be present. As noted, the interview should take place in the presence of the consular officer and a witness, preferably another consular officer, another Foreign Service officer (nonconsular) or locally employed staff (LE staff). You should also explain that upon reaching the age of 18, the minor has a six- month opportunity to reclaim U.S. nationality. See 7 FAM Exhibit 1292, A Sample Letter to Accompany CLN for Minor Renunciants, which should be provided to minor renunciants together with an approved CLN;
(4) Consular officer’s opinion: You should fully document every interaction with the minor and explain in your consular officer’s opinion the reasons you believe that the minor is, or is not, mature enough and sufficiently knowing to renounce
You also state: “The FAM is a policy and procedures manual to dictate the current administrations policies. Note the part of FAM you’re quoting was revised after Obama took office.”
Show us the other prior manual before it was revised for a comparison in order to validate your claims.
From the same FAM manual I found this:
7 FAM Exhibit 1292 A SAMPLE LETTER TO ACCOMPANY CLN FOR MINOR RENUNCIANTS (CT:CON-285; 03-06-2009)
Post Letterhead
Date Dear
(NAME):
Every U.S. citizen has the right to renounce voluntarily and intentionally his or her citizenship, as you have done. Because this is a very serious decision with consequences that may not have been apparent to you at the time, the law gives persons like yourself who renounced under the age of 18 an opportunity to reevaluate your decision when you reach the age of 18.
Section 351(b) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S. Code 1483) allows you to reclaim your U.S. citizenship within 6 months after your 18th birthday. You are advised to make a note of the deadline to reclaim automatically your U.S. citizenship: the deadline is [insert date six months from 18th birthday.] You may do so by going to any U.S. embassy or consulate or passport acceptance facility, execute a passport application and take an oath of allegiance to the United States. Under this law, if you make such a claim, you will be considered as never having renounced your U.S. citizenship.
Just like the decision to renounce your citizenship, the decision to reclaim it is yours alone. No one, including the U.S. Government, any other government, or even your own family can make the decision for you. Please keep this in mind as you consider whether you may want to make a claim of citizenship once you become 18.
The U.S. Government and the Department of State do not wish to influence your decision. We just want to make sure that you know that you have the right to reconsider and “take back” this decision upon reaching the age of 18. Because this is a very important right that you retain, we ask that you keep this letter with your Certificate of Loss of Nationality should you wish to take advantage of this right when you reach the age of 18. The Department of State will also keep a complete record of your renunciation as well as this letter. Please remember that the period to automatically reclaim citizenship expires on [date].
If you have any questions, do not hesitate to contact (NAME) at (phone number). You may also contact the U.S. Department of State, Office of American Citizens Services and Crisis Management at any time. That office can be reached at 202- 647-5225. Sincerely,
UNCLASSIFIED (U) U.S. Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual Volume 7 Consular Affairs
7 FAM 1290 Page 11 of 11
SIGNATURE OF CONSULAR OFFICER
TYPED NAME OF CONSULAR OFFICER
TITLE OF CONSULAR OFFICER
“The allegations that you seem to want to see happen, will never get past the clerk. It would be deemed a fishing expedition at best.”
Not true.
A usurper violates the Appointments Clause of the U.S. Constitution every time he makes an appointment, even if the Senate advised and consented to the appointment. Consequently, any defendant or respondent who is ordered to appear before an Obama appointed Judge may object to the appointment of the Judge. The De Facto Officer doctrine does not apply if an allegation and objection is made before trial.
In the preliminary hearing, “I object, Your Honor. Your Honor was appointed to the bench by a usurper, specifically Barack Hussein Obama II. Obama is eligible to hold the office of President because he naturalized as a U.S Citizen in 1983. Naturalized citizens are prohibited from holding that specific office.”
An allegation has been made and a hearing should be scheduled. If Obama denies he’s a naturalized U.S. Citizen, then he can be subpoenaed to obtain and bring with him his complete immigration file to a deposition.
” I believe a CLN cancels your natural born citizenship status.”
Wait a minute......you believe? Why don’t you know for sure Sven?
Sven, Orly Taitz earlier on her website that you are from Sweden. If that is true, how do you know so much about U.S. law, procedures and regulations? Are you an American citizen just living in Sweden or a native Swede? Please tell us for the record. Thanks.
Cold case posse supporter,
Many thanks for posting this!
The “loud voice” is NOT directed at you :) its directed elsewhere ;)
(Loud voice)
Nowhere does it say that it is referring to revocation of a CLN!
It is instructions on how to handle minors wanting to revoke their nationality/citizenship!
Note especially the following :
“....Children under 16 are presumed not to have the requisite maturity and knowing intent;......”
CHILDREN UNDER 16
(/loud voice)
“Wait a minute......you believe? Why don’t you know for sure Sven?”
Tell us what you believe.
Is natural born citizenship held in perpetuity, regardless of any action taken by the Executive Branch of Government?
Why was a document redacted from the Obama divorce record?
Why did St. Francis of Assisi enroll Barry Soetoro, son of Lolo Soetoro and born in Honolulu, HI, as an Indonesian National?
If minors cannot renounce and Barry Soetoro was born in Hawaii, how did he become an Indonesian National.
St. Francis of Assisi is a private school in Djakarta, Indonesia run by the Catholic Church. It does not forbid U.S. Citizens from enrolling in the school. Why wasn’t Obama enrolled as Barack Hussein Obama II, U.S. Citizen born in Hawaii?
What is the significance, if any, of telling the State Dept on a passport application you will be staying abroad indefinitely and the purpose of your trip is that you married a foreign national?
is an oath of renunciation the only time a CLN can be issued by the SoS? What do your think of Vance v. Terrazas SCOTUS opinion? Terrazas was born in Maryland to a U.S. Citizen mother and Mexican National father. When he was 22, he stated an oath of allegiance and renounced his U.S. Citizenship to Mexico.. SoS Vance issued him a CLN because he stated an oath of allegiance and renounced to Mexican authorities and SCOTUS supported SoS Vance. Is abandonment of U.S. Citizenship a viable option for the SoS to issue a CLN?
Can we agree a foreign birth would necessitate the issuance of a Certificate of Naturalization for Obama to be considered a U.S Citizen? If he didn’t naturalize as a U.S. Citizen, then he is a permanent resident alien or an undocumented guest worker. Can we agree on this much?
If so, wouldn’t it be prudent to focus on Obama’s immigration records and not an alleged CLN or Hawaii birth record?
Can we agree Obama’s immigration records are the most important records needed to expose Obama as a usurper? If so, why are we discussing the finer points of the issuance of a CLN to a minor?
Cold case posse supporter, all
I noticed that in the Vance vs. Terrazas case, the renunciator was 22.
Not 7, as 0 would have been in 1968.
Question raised in post #53
” What do your think of Vance v. Terrazas SCOTUS opinion? Terrazas was born in Maryland to a U.S. Citizen mother and Mexican National father. When he was 22,he stated an oath of allegiance and renounced his U.S. Citizenship to Mexico.. SoS Vance issued him a CLN because he stated an oath of allegiance and renounced to Mexican authorities and SCOTUS supported SoS Vance. Is abandonment of U.S. Citizenship a viable option for the SoS to issue a CLN?”
Before I concede anything, I want to make a request of you.
Answer the questions put to you on this and many other threads, answer them in THIS thread, since the title is applicable.
Other threads questions, see especially #4 and #11:
Part Five - Fuddy Illegally Executes the Plan Butterdezillion’s Blog ^ | April 8, 2013 | butterdezillion
Posted on Mon Apr 08 2013 14:22:24 GMT-0500 (CDT) by butterdezillion
To: butterdezillion
Regardless of where Obama was born and who is parents are,Obama has a Certificate of Naturalization issued to him in 1983. Federal documents supersede state level documents. SCOTUS has held in many cases naturalized U.S. Citizens are not eligible to be President.
3 posted on Mon Apr 08 2013 14:30:36 GMT-0500 (CDT) by SvenMagnussen (1983 ... the year Obama became a naturalized U.S. citizen.) [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies | Report Abuse]
To: SvenMagnussen
Butterdezillion has a pile of evidence backing her claims.
What do you have to support your claim “Obama has a Certificate of Naturalization issued to him in 1983”?
4 posted on Mon Apr 08 2013 14:39:49 GMT-0500 (CDT) by Ray76 (Do you reject Obama? And all his works? And all his empty promises?) [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies | Report Abuse]
To: SvenMagnussen
You keep saying that and have thus far outright refused to provide a scintilla of proof for your claim.
6 posted on Mon Apr 08 2013 15:06:47 GMT-0500 (CDT) by Vendome (Don’t take life so seriously, you won’t live through it anyway) [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies | Report Abuse]
To: Vendome
Obama’s immigration records are subject to the Privacy Act. Even if the Privacy Act were violated and Obama’s Certificate of Naturalization were published,it’s inadmissible in Court.
Only Obama or an official speaking for the custodian of the Federal Government’s immigration records can provide his Certificate of Naturalization to the Court.
8 posted on Mon Apr 08 2013 15:46:23 GMT-0500 (CDT) by SvenMagnussen (1983 ... the year Obama became a naturalized U.S. citizen.) [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies | Report Abuse]
To: SvenMagnussen
Thank you for finally responding and admitting there is currently no evidence for your claim.
10 posted on Mon Apr 08 2013 16:04:58 GMT-0500 (CDT) by Vendome (Don’t take life so seriously, you won’t live through it anyway) [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies | Report Abuse]
To: SvenMagnussen
“Obama’s immigration records are subject to the Privacy Act”
If they are private then how the hell do you know about what’s in his records?
11 posted on Mon Apr 08 2013 16:08:30 GMT-0500 (CDT) by Cold Case Posse Supporter [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies | Report Abuse]
“Consequently, allegations in a civil suit are assumed to be true until successfully defended.”
Wrong. During the pre-trail phase, Civil claims only need to be answered, NOT defended. No presentation of any evidence is required or even allowed unless a hearing is ordered.
There is a boiler plate form attorneys (and pro ses) can use which is a single paragraph making a “general denial of all claims” and that is enough to prevent a pre-trail default ruling against the defendant for failure to answer.
See my comment #43.
Cold case posse supporter,
Many thanks for the link.
Comment #8 is especially interesting:
8. Paula Hoehn April 8th, 2013 @ 12:15 pm
Supposedly according to Sven Magnussen, in 1971 Barry Soetoro was taken into protective custody by Immigration
and Customs, and his legal custody transferred to Catholic Social Services of Conn, and grandmother Madelyn
Payne Dunham was appointed his legal guardian. Supposedly, Obama entered the Federal Foster Care program in
1971.
The SSN used by Obama was issued on March 28, 1977 with a number reserved for Connecticut.
Is it logical that the Catholic Soc Serv, the Federal Foster Care, or the grandmother would wait six more years from
1971 until 1977 to apply for a SSN for him by which he could receive many financial benefits?
Paula Hoehn
Pinging y’all to previous post!
DON’T forget Obama’s Grandma worked in the Hawai office of vital statistics with access to social security info at her beck and call
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