Annie Dookhan: "What difference does it make?"
Posted on 02/04/2013 2:26:43 PM PST by virgil283
“In this era of mass incarceration, the police shouldn’t be trusted any more than any other witness, perhaps less so. That may sound harsh, but numerous law enforcement officials have put the matter more bluntly. . . . Police departments have been rewarded in recent years for the sheer numbers of stops, searches and arrests. In the war on drugs, federal grant programs like the Edward Byrne Memorial Justice Assistance Grant Program have encouraged state and local law enforcement agencies to boost drug arrests in order to compete for millions of dollars in funding. Agencies receive cash rewards for arresting high numbers of people for drug offenses, no matter how minor the offenses or how weak the evidence. Law enforcement has increasingly become a numbers game. And as it has, police officers’ tendency to regard procedural rules as optional and to lie and distort the facts has grown as well. Numerous scandals involving police officers lying or planting drugs — in Tulia, Tex. and Oakland, Calif., for example — have been linked to federally funded drug task forces eager to keep the cash rolling in. . . .
(Excerpt) Read more at pjmedia.com ...
Speaking as a former Prosecutor, while the overwhelming number of Officers are good decent people trying to do their job the best they can, the Public would be floored at how often they lie. It is certainly more than a rare event.
There seems to be similar incentives for prosecutors to proceed and aid and abet the Police in sleazy practices..
I object to drawing broad conclusions from individual examples. Because the police in the Bronx or NYC think that ‘making numbers’ is their job does NOT mean that every PD or even every officer thinks or behaves that way.
I find it interesting that this an ever increasing effort to make our police officers out as the bad guy and never to be trusted no matter what. Across this nation there are many local PDs and Sheriffs offices that do a very tough job and do it well.
I am tired of the singularities thrown about as proof
Police, prosecutors and judges - all work for the GOVERNMENT.
The police are the hands of the government. Those conservatives here who (rightly, in my view) lack trust in the government should reflect on what that means regarding the police.
“Because the police in the Bronx or NYC think that ‘making numbers’ is their job does NOT mean that every PD or even every officer thinks or behaves that way.”
Well, ok. EVERY officer is certainly not true. How about most officers? My retired cop friend has plenty of stories of cops lying in court. All totally justified, of course. If you trust cops, you are a fool.
why??? because they can, with virtual impunity...
I know that they don’t view themselves as my servants.
And again you generalize from an instance to the whole....logically flawed under any conditions.
Your cynicism is a sad commentary on your life
The real culprit here is the prosecutor. If cop perjury led to prosecution, conviction, and heavy prison time for the perjuring cop, then false testimony from cops would cease.
Police, like most people, respond rationally to the incentives in front of them. If they are rewarded for arrests, and not penalized for lying in order to get those arrests, then many will lie.
America has changed since I was growing up in small town America in the 50’s. And not for the better.
With the exception of eliminating legal segregation.
Show me the law where it says a LEO must always tell the truth to a suspect in the same way that a suspect must always tell the truth to a LEO.
I find it interesting that this an ever increasing effort to make our police officers out as the bad guy and never to be trusted no matter what. Across this nation there are many local PDs and Sheriffs offices that do a very tough job and do it well.
When the LEOs start trusting every single citizen they meet, then we can trust every LEO we meet. Just as they assume that every citizen they meet is a potential cop-killer, then citizens must assume that every LEO we meet is a crooked cop.
I am tired of the singularities thrown about as proof
There are two types of cops in the world --those who've been caught in their lies and those who have yet to be caught lying.
They do it because there are no consequences for it. That’s why.
And, judges. I have personally witnessed two cases in which the cop lied on the stand about facts material to the case (perjury) which led to the dismissal of the charges and the only thing the judge did was to give the lying cop(s) a stern talking-to.
One rarely gets more Justice from the Legal System than one pays for.
But in the public sector, employees are typically evaluated by the number of tasks completed: welfare cases processed, new food stamp reciepients signed up, or number of tickets issued.
Results [society's problems reduced] don't figure in. Just look busy.
I used to handle civil rights claims against LEOs (42 USC 1983 cases, for instance), and I agree with you: The chutzpah of LEOs in telling lies is breathtaking. And it was my job to defend the LEOs against those claims! No wonder I take what they say — especially under oath — with something less than confidence.
“Your cynicism is a sad commentary on your life”
Ouch! Your comment hurts me because you know so much about me! I told the exact circumstances of my “insight”. If you don’t like it, well go pound sand. Sometimes reality is what it is, not what you wish it was.
Suggested viewing from Paladin2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE
Watch every part. They are all good and well worth your time. Even if you are not a criminal with plans to do illegal things.
I wonder if he is embellishing in order to attempt to impress you?
Interesting that you completely avoid the comment I made dealing with your the circumstances of your ‘insight’. Reality is more than just your one instance of a cop you know who tells you stories.
bleeech....Non responsive.
I don’t disagree with you. My lament is the cynics and all those with other agenda out there who seem to delight in finding every instance of police failure.
Are there ‘bad cops’? Of course there are (after all the police are human just as all of us are). Does that immediately mean that all cops....(fill in the blank to match the story meme)? No it doesn’t.
I find that there seem to be some people who just insist that the police are always wrong, they always lie, and they are always out to get them. Interestingly enough that has not been my experience nor the experience of people I know. But according to the folks who don’t like the police our experience doesn’t count
cynicism ....”An attitude of scornful or jaded negativity, especially a general distrust of the integrity or professed motives of others”
an accurate description of your comments
I think officers sit down together to write incident reports all the time. They confer with each other to get their story straight and keep from contradicting each other. They may change a few things but they stick to the facts most of the time. There are other times they confer in order to cover up wrongdoing and fabricate a story. I’m sure that some departments fabricate more then others but it happens everywhere.
“Interesting that you completely avoid the comment I made dealing with your the circumstances of your ‘insight’. Reality is more than just your one instance of a cop you know who tells you stories.”
Not sure what comments “interest” you. Tell me again about the circumstances of my insight. I’m guessing that you think that I’m generalizing from a specific situation to “every” situation. Well, honestly, I cannot know of EVERY cop everywhere. I’m simply telling you that my cop friend tells me that cops lie under oath to further their cases. Don’t like it? Oh well.
So are you some honest cop who is standing tall for the brothers? Or maybe you are some deluded city dweller who thinks that the cops will be there for you?
cynicism ....”An attitude of scornful or jaded negativity, especially a general distrust of the integrity or professed motives of others”
Really? I’ve never been a cop. I’m simply telling you what I have been told by someone who I believe. Don’t like it? Can’t help you. If you are a cop, I’m sorry that you have to work under the cloud created by others in your profession. You should work to expose the criminals in your department and promote trust in view of the public. If you have no criminals in your department, then you are working in some special place or you are deluded.
.....the Public would be floored at how often they lie. It is certainly more than a rare event.
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No , I’m afraid we wouldn’t ... testilying is the norm , and it doesn’t even have to be a “real” arrest , I ran up against blatant testilying the last 2 times I contested traffic stops... And it seems most departments have instituted procedures and policies where the immediate superior to the person you file a complaint against performs the investigation ,, ensuring a whitewash job.
“Your “retired cop friend” does not know every LEO in the country. I might add that if he really does have knowledge about LEOs that perjured themselves, and did not report it, he is just as guilty as they are.
I wonder if he is embellishing in order to attempt to impress you?”
I agree with you. He certainly doesn’t know every LEO in the country. Should I give that a “Duh”?? Maybe he is embellishing, don’t know. Doesn’t seem like something he is proud of. He is guilty, as are most cops. They cover for their brothers. Is this news?
The thin blue line lives on donuts..
and really is not that thin anymore...
Wait a minute...For the most part, they are way over paid, showered with tax paid benefits and the majority work for corrupt local, state and federal government agencies, not to mention most belong to corrupt government unions.
Most of these government agencies have contributed to the expansion of government at all levels, expansion of government unions, increased taxes, increased regulations, fines, fees you name it. All this while most government agencies have simply refused to cut back the size and spending of these government agencies.
In fact, there are now more unionized cops and government employees than belong to unions in private sector America.
The justice system is as honest as the lawyers that run it...
Needless to say that about says it all...
A; To keep down the foreskin... Yeah even the “butch” ones..
Yep, that's the problem right there. There's all sorts of entrapment going on out there. It's best to stay far, far away from the Legal System.
Agencies in bold text are LEAs (Law Enforcement Agencies) Executive Branch
Department of Agriculture (USDA) Office of Inspector General (USDAOIG) United States Forest Service (USFS) U.S. Forest Service Law Enforcement and Investigations (USFSLEI) Department of Commerce (DOC) Bureau of Industry and Security (BIS) Office of Export Enforcement (OEE) National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) National Institute of Standards and Technology Police (NIST Police) National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS) National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Fisheries Office for Law Enforcement (OLE) Department of Commerce Office of Security (DOCOS) Department of Commerce Office of Inspector General (DOCOIG) Department of Defense Office of Inspector General (DODOIG) Defense Criminal Investigative Service (DCIS) Pentagon Force Protection Agency (PFPA) United States Pentagon Police (USPPD) Department of Defense Police Defense Logistics Agency Police (DLA) National Security Agency Police (NSA) Defense Intelligence Agency Police (DIA) National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency Police (NGA) Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction (SIGAR) Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction (SIGIR) Department of the Army Counterintelligence activity (CI), United States Army Intelligence and Security Command United States Army Criminal Investigation Command (CID) United States Army Military Police Corps Department of the Army Police United States Army Corrections Command Department of the Navy Naval Criminal Investigative Service (NCIS) United States Marine Corps Criminal Investigation Division (MC CID) Department of the Navy Police (civilian police) Marine Corps Provost Marshal's Office (military police) United States Marine Corps Police (civilian police) United States Naval Academy Police (civilian police) Master-at-Arms (U.S. Navy military police) Department of the Air Force Air Force Office of Special Investigations (AFOSI) Air Force Security Forces Center (AFSFC) Department of the Air Force Police Department of Education Office of the Inspector General (EDOIG) Department of Energy (DOE) Office of Inspector General (DOEOIG) Office of Health, Safety and Security (DOEHSS) Office of Secure Transportation (OST) Department of Health and Human Services United States Food and Drug and Administration (HHSFDA) Office of Criminal Investigations (OCI) National Institutes of Health (NIH) National Institutes of Health Police (NIH Police) Office of Inspector General (HHSOIG) Department of Homeland Security (DHS) CBP Officers and Border Patrol Agents at a ceremony in 2007 Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC) United States Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) United States Coast Guard (USCG) Coast Guard Investigative Service (CGIS) United States Customs and Border Protection (CBP) Office of Air and Marine (OAM) Office of Border Patrol (OBP) Office of Field Operations (OFO) Federal Protective Service (FPS) United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) Enforcement Removal Operations (ERO) Homeland Security Investigations (HSI) Office of Intelligence Office of Professional Responsibility (OPR) United States Secret Service (USSS) Transportation Security Administration (TSA) Office of Law Enforcement/Federal Air Marshal Service (FAMS) Department of Homeland Security Office of Inspector General (DHSOIG) Department of Housing and Urban Development Office of Inspector General (HUD/OIG) [1] Protective Service Division (HUDPSD) Department of the Interior (USDI) Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) Bureau of Indian Affairs Police (BIA Police) Bureau of Land Management (BLM) Bureau of Land Management Office of Law Enforcement (BLM Rangers and Special Agents) Bureau of Reclamation (BOR) Bureau of Reclamation Office of Law Enforcement (BOR Rangers) Hoover Dam Police aka Bureau of Reclamation Police National Park Service (NPS) Division of Law Enforcement, Security and Emergency Services (U.S. Park Rangers-Law Enforcement) United States Park Police Office of Inspector General (DOIOIG) Office of Surface Mining Reclamation and Enforcement (OSMRE) United States Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) Office of Law Enforcement Division of Refuge Law Enforcement Department of Justice (USDOJ) Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) United States Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) (since 1973) Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) Federal Bureau of Investigation Police (FBI Police) Federal Bureau of Prisons (BOP) Office of Inspector General (DOJOIG) United States Marshals Service (USMS) Department of Labor Office of Inspector General (DOLOIG) Department of State (DoS) Bureau of Diplomatic Security (DS) U.S. Diplomatic Security Service (DSS) Office of Foreign Missions Office of the Inspector General of the Department of State Department of Transportation Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Office of Inspector General (DOTOIG) United States Merchant Marine Academy Department of Public Safety (USMMADPS) Office of Odometer Fraud Investigation - NHTSA (OFI) Department of the Treasury A Bureau of Engraving and Printing Police (BEP) patrol car. Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) Bureau of Engraving and Printing Police (BEP Police) Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FINCEN) Internal Revenue Service Criminal Investigation Division (IRS-CI) Office of Inspector General (TREASOIG) Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration (TIGTA) United States Mint Police (USMP) Special Inspector General for the Troubled Asset Relief Program (SIGTARP) Department of Veterans Affairs Office of Inspector General (VAOIG) Veterans Affairs Police Legislative Branch Library of Congress, Office of Security and Emergency Preparedness (LOC) Sergeant at Arms of the United States House of Representatives Sergeant at Arms of the United States Senate United States Capitol Police (USCP) United States Government Printing Office Police Office of Inspector General, United States Government Printing Office Judicial Branch Marshal of the United States Supreme Court United States Supreme Court Police Administrative Office of the United States Courts, Office of Probation and Pretrial Services (AOUSC) Other federal law enforcement agencies Independent Agencies and Quasi-official Corporations Central Intelligence Agency Security Protective Service (CIASPS) United States Environmental Protection Agency Criminal Investigation Division (EPACID) Office of Inspector General (EPAOIG) National Aeronautics and Space Administration Office of Inspector General (NASAOIG) NASA Security Services Nuclear Regulatory Commission, Office of Inspector General (NRCOIG) Office of Personnel Management, Office of Inspector General (OPMOIG) Railroad Retirement Board, Office of Inspector General (RRBOIG) Small Business Administration, Office of Inspector General (SBAOIG) Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, Office of Inspector General (FDICOIG) General Services Administration, Office of Inspector General (GSAOIG) Social Security Administration Office of Inspector General (SSAOIG) United States Postal Service (USPS) USPS Office of Inspector General (USPSOIG) United States Postal Inspection Service (USPIS) U.S. Postal Police Smithsonian Institution Office of Protection Services (SI) National Zoological Park Police (NZPP) Office of the Inspector General (OIG) Amtrak Amtrak Office of Inspector General Amtrak Office of Security Strategy and Special Operations (OSSSO) Amtrak Police Federal Reserve Bank: Federal Reserve Police Tennessee Valley Authority Tennessee Valley Authority Office of Inspector General (TVAOIG) Tennessee Valley Authority Police (TVAP) United States Agency for International Development, Office of Inspector General (AIDOIG) "
NIST PoPos? Come on, really?
The DA, prosecutors and the cops investigate themselves?
How screwed up is this? It's like the DOJ or Congress investigation themselves.
The government prosecutors, DA and cops etc., party, go to dinner and bump bellies with each other... Courts for the most part work hand in hand with law enforcement and many will do an say anything for a conviction or to, "Win" at all costs..And they decide which laws to enforce and which to ignore? It's a very sad situation.
There are serious cracks in the foundation folks..Big government became way too big, too intrusive and way too controlling.
Just a generation or two ago, people for the most part trusted government and did not feel controlled or consumed by it. People waved at the local deputy or police officer. Now, the lack of trust regarding those in government is wide spread and escalating for good reason. Just look at their bosses, those in Congress, the courts, DOJ and all the other alphabet agencies.
We have government water and power employees and cops making hundreds of thousands a years and then they collect lottery style tax paid government pensions on top of this?
All this while private sector America has been beat like a drum and economically gang raped by bad and corrupt government policies?
The majority of private sector middle class America have just had enough of this bull sh*t.
You don’t know if he is embellishing, or even telling the truth, yet, you choose to believe him when he tells you that most, if not all, cops are liars. Telling you what you want to hear.
Also, doesn’t say much for your integrity if you choose people with no integrity as friends. Should I give that a “Duh”??
Go ahead and “Duh” me! Can’t say I don’t agree. I got sick of the attitude and we haven’t met up for several months. If there is a “funny” aspect: I always taunted him about trusting cops. He told me that the longer he was separated from the force, the more he agreed with me. The view from the inside vs. the view from the outside, I guess.
Sorry, it’s not a perfect world and no one I know is perfect.
“you choose to believe him when he tells you that most, if not all, cops are liars. Telling you what you want to hear.”
Actually, I didn’t say that. Maybe you should focus more on what is actually said vs. what offends you. “Most, if not all” is not what I said and is an obvious misrepresentation of my post. Since anyone can scroll back to see, why bother?
The violator is ragging on the cop writing him a ticket accusing him of
doing it because of a quota system.
Officer replies along the lines of, 'They did away with the quota system.
We can write all the tickets we want to now.'
There’s plenty of non-nonsensical gun laws, (16 in. rifle barrels vs 18” shotgun barrels, no cheap noise suppressors to save old folk’s hearing, etc.) that tend to cause Police Riots during enforcement (Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc.).
This public sector mentality goes a long way in explaining why collectivists can't/won't be educated by private sector logic. The fundamental worldviews are incompatible.
The private sector definition of success (results) is not the public sector definition. The individual defines success as finishing a task, with "finishing" being a state of natural balance, harmony, and peace. That is, the best solution is one that works smoothly in the real world in concert with other individuals, not one that must beat the real world into submission.
The public sector solution is to perpetuate strife, discord and dysfunction precisely because it guarantees the need for more "solutions". This is why the welfare state is considered [by those with the collectivist worldview] to be such a success i.e. worthy of unlimited funding. The abject fraud, dependency, chaos, and corruption are necessary elements to keep the perpetual motion rat-wheel spinning. There is no peace, says the Lord, for the wicked.
Perpetual strife is the true nature of the left's "sustainable energy" mantra, or for that matter, any of their so-called solutions. The gun-grabbers, for example, speak of peace (they lie) in order to intentionally generate chaos, whereas the 2A defenders' goal is to engender true peace, either by being left alone (armed citizens make criminals perform a cost-benefit analysis on their career choices), or by having the means to defend against lawless, violent two-legged vermin.
The free man holds a viceral disdain for that rat-wheel. The slave is eager to jump on board, so he can "look busy".
Plenty of peaceful, lawful citizens have had run-ins with the types of coppers who behave like rats. Sure seems like these days that police departments are hiring based on a dystopian "fitness" standard.
If it was traffic court, the judges are definitely part of the problem. The fines they impose, help support the municipal government which appointed them.
Sad to say, some self-professed "conservatives" claim to lack trust in the government but really mean "I lack trust in the government when it's doing things I don't like, but I place trust in the government when it's doing things I like (such as conducting the War on Drugs)."
I think your frustration is from seeing the problem with ‘law enforcement’ -vs- ‘gestapo’
Most conservatives are law abiding and like a police force to maintain law and order (like on Andy of Mayberry) Meaning we LIKE the police. (Disclaimer: my son is an officer- one of the good ones)
But too many times the government is overreaching and USING law enforcement to its advantage, and some of them act like gestapo relishing this role.
When the SHTF those people will be the first to fire on the civilians, so you are right to be concerned.
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