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While we are talking about guns and mass killings of innocent women and children!!
The Davidian Massacre ^ | July 2007 | Carol Moore

Posted on 01/10/2013 9:35:47 AM PST by BillM

by Carol Moore

I was one of millions of Americans who, after seeing the April 19, 1993 burning of the Branch Davidian church outside of Waco, Texas wondered: Did these people really commit mass suicide, as the government alleged, despite the clear evidence on television that the fire started after a tank crashed into one part of the building? Were they really as insane as the government claimed? Why did they have to be attacked with massive, military-like force 51 days earlier? What is the truth?
After two years of research I came to the following conclusions, documented in my book The Davidian Massacre published in late 1995. After the book came out more evidence surfaced that back up allegations -- and answer questions -- presented in the book. I review both below. See the links above for the book's online version and other information.

On February 28,1993 overly aggressive and highly militarized agents of BATF set out to put on a "big show" to increase their budgets and prestige by attacking the Branch Davidian religious group outside of Waco, Texas. Six months earlier, agents had spurned David Koresh's attempts to cooperate with their investigation of his gun business by inviting them to see his guns. On February 28, when he came to the front door and tried to cooperate, reckless agents shot him and mortally wounded his father-in-law. Other agents started shooting from helicopters, killing four Davidians. Agents probably assassinated another Davidian who approached Mount Carmel later that day. And so began a 51 day standoff.

Davidians and their on-site attorney made it clear to FBI negotiators that evidence of illegal gunfire in the highest roofs and walls of Mount Carmel would lead to prosecution of agents for murder. One of the Davidians' motivations for refusing to surrender was their demands for assurances this evidence would not be destroyed by BATF investigators after they left the premises. It was not until the end of March that outside attorneys told them that Texas Rangers, who they trusted, and not BATF, would be investigating.

FBI Hostage Rescue Team member hearing of these claims, and bent on revenge for the deaths of four BATF agents killed by Davidian defenders during the February 28th BATF attack, did their best to sabotage negotiations. They escalated harassment of Davidians every time individuals left Mount Carmel, turning off power, faking tank attacks, turning on bright lights and loud music. Finally, distrustful Davidians stopped coming out at all.

At the same time agents began a campaign of lies to Attorney General Janet Reno about the status of negotiations, the alleged beating of children, the safety of CS gas, the rules of engagement, and other issues, tricking her into approving their gas and tank assault. They set it up to make sure that the attack would lead to the destruction of the building, its incriminating evidence–and scores of inconvenient Davidian witnesses to BATF crimes.

On April 19, 1993, as the tank assault began, FBI agents falsely claimed that Davidians broke their phone, making negotiations impossible. Davidians believe a tank broke the line. They claimed Davidians shot at them, giving them an excuse to speed up their plan to massively gas Davidian and rip apart Mount Carmel with tanks. Davidians pleaded with gestures and signs to have their phones fixed--they were terrified of being shot or run over by tanks if they started exiting. For even as tanks rammed the building, the FBI lied, calling out over loudspeakers, "This is not an assault."

After six hours of tank attacks, a fire started, probably by the last tank attack knocking over a lantern–but possibly by an FBI incendiary device at the front of the building. Infrared (FLIR) video evidence strongly suggests an agent in an FBI tank lobbed an incendiary device into the back of the building after the first fire, starting a second fire. Wind whipped fire swept through the tinderbox of a building. Most Davidians were trapped by debris and collapsed stairwells on the second floor or inside the concrete room. There is evidence on FLIR video that FBI or Delta force personnel shot at least 70 shots at the back of building during the fire, probably to stop Davidians trying to escape. There even is evidence, dramatized convincingly in the new film “Waco: A New Revelation” that FBI or Delta Force personnel sneaked into the building and placed a shaped charge on top of the concrete room to kill Davidian leaders who they believed were hiding there. Nineteen men, thirty-four women and twenty-three children died that day.

The trial of eleven survivors was a travesty of prosecutorial and judicial misconduct. Nine Davidians received a total of 243 years in sentences. The Supreme Court has agreed to hear their appeals on the 30 year sentences the judge meted out to them for carrying a gun during the commission of a crime–even though the jury found them innocent of that crime, murder of federal agents. He also failed to tell the jury they could find the Davidians innocent of aiding and abetting voluntary manslaughter by reason of defense, something some jurors declare they would have done! On June 4, 2000 the seven Davidians still imprisoned, aided by noted Second Amendment attorney Stephen Halbrook, won their Supreme Court appeal and their sentences were cut to a total of 105 years. Six of the seven were released from prison in 2006, one in 2007.

In 1995, after two weeks of hearings, Congress announced it had gotten out all the truth –and promised it had gotten federal agents under control. My book reviews many reasons that was not true. For details about continuing revelations until the end of the year 2000 see Waco News.
In 1999, pushed by evidence from Davidian civil suit investigators and attorneys, as well as film-makers, "Waco" made the headlines again. “Ex-agent says device fired at Waco compound,” “[Texas Rangers] official says Army force present at Waco siege,” “Reno Says FBI Misled Her About Waco Arms,” “Reno and Freeh Agree on New Independent Probe of Waco” and “Independent Counsel and Congress Investigate Waco” blared across newspapers front pages and web pages of America. Of course these weren’t “revelations” to most Waco researchers, government critics and Davidian attorneys–or to people who had seen the Academy Award-nominated and Emmy winning film “Waco: the Rules of Engagement.” Congress promised yet another round of Waco hearings but in the end only a few Senators took the matter seriously.

Then President Bill Clinton appointed former Senator John Danforth to investigate. Danforth believed the FBI, conducted questionable forensic tests, and his year 2000 report again exonerated FBI agents. The only prosecution Danforth brought was against the federal prosecutor who allowed a Waco investigator too free an access to evidence, prompting the 1999 revelation that FBI agents had used pyrotechnic devices on April 19th, despite their previous denials. (The prosecutor earlier had engaged in coverups of evidence of BATF agents' crimes against Davidians, so we shouldn't feel too badly for him.) He claimed to be a whistleblower -- thereby making sure the government knew he could expose a lot more cover ups -- and received only probation after plea bargaining.

Why has there been such a cover up of the truth about Waco? Simply put, the truth is too terrible for the American people to hear: federal agents twice attacked and murdered a total of 82 civilians, mostly women, children and the elderly–half of them people of color. And the Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches of our “Constitutional Republic” let them get away with it. All branches have a vested interest for finding federal agents innocent of all crimes–protection of their own perks and privileges.

The truth would undermine Americans’ faith in their political system. Waco film-maker Michael McNulty has revealed some in Congress fear “The truth would just inflame the crazies.” Americans must demand prosecution of all responsible agents and financial reparations to the Davidian prisoners who spent more than a dozen years in prison, victims of government crimes against them.

KEYWORDS: banglist; guncontrol; murder; secondamendment; waco
We don't need 2nd Amendment - What could go wrong???
1 posted on 01/10/2013 9:35:53 AM PST by BillM
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To: BillM
Just a test. The Feds wanted to see if they could slaughter a bunch of innocent Americans, including children and get away with. Hardly a peep from the sheep.

A number of the Davidians were black yet we heard nothing from the JustUs Brothers. Now why was that?

2 posted on 01/10/2013 9:49:22 AM PST by Eagles6 (Valley Forge Redux)
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To: BillM
"It can't happen here!"

Oh, wait,...

"It hasn't happened here!"

Oh, wait,...

3 posted on 01/10/2013 9:53:14 AM PST by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it, and the Constitution and law mean what WE say.)
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To: BillM

The first thing that crossed my mind is how could Americans do thisd to other Americans.

Then I hear people saying that if guns are ordered confiscated that other Americans in te police forces will not do Obama’s dirty work for them.Those who think that are wrong Dead wrong.That Police Officer that lives next to you and is your buddy will turn on you like a rabid dog when he is ordered to.

Police are a fraternity, they stick together. They will lie for each other, they don’t trust anyone but other officers.
They will break the laws they give you a ticket for opr will prosecute you for.

They like being above the law. I am not against officers of the law, I am just telling you the truth you already know.
Not one of you hasn’t seen a police officer speeding, talking on his cell phone while driving, or sliding through a red light.

The story of Waco is just such an example of police doing hat they were told and anxious to do it. Hyped up on adrenaline and stirred into action with the pack syndrome.
They have guns and are anxious to see how they work. We have all read the stories of early morning raids, SWAT teams, shooting the family dog.

Rest assured that when they are told to come and get your guns, they will come.What the hell they aren’t losing theirs.They retire and still can carry, you can’t. Many of them are gun nuts, they get to keep theirs, while they come for yours.

4 posted on 01/10/2013 10:05:30 AM PST by Venturer
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To: Venturer

BATF, not police! These are the guys Obama will send.

Oh, remember Fast and Furious. How many people do the BATF have to slaughter?

5 posted on 01/10/2013 10:10:53 AM PST by BillM (.)
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To: BillM

Klintoon lied...people died...

6 posted on 01/10/2013 10:11:26 AM PST by Don Corleone ("Oil the the cannoli. Take it to the Mattress.")
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To: BillM
I learned a lot from Waco, so did a lot of Americans. I have never forgotten Waco, nor have many Americans.

Why do the media assume that all citizens have the attention span of a 10 year old. It is not wise to underestimate your enemy.

Let me guess, after Waco gun sales rose, and never fell back. Is this an indication that the sheeple are asleep? Who is fooling who?

And why would someone assume that a small scale mass murder done in one place would dictate how the mass of America would react if you tried this when America no longer trusts its government all over the country. A truely foolish test, tipping their hand for what gain? Waco changed how Americans understood their government, and destroyed the hard won trust of the American people for what? 83 dead people?! A massive attack done when people trust you is many times as effective as one done when people don't and have had time to change their mindset.

What is not mentioned is that they had to move fast at the end, because the number of people stopped at roadblocks heading INTO Waco was increasing exponentialy. And they were starting to show up with some serious firepower. Americans were starting to react, NOT like the “Authorities” wanted. I guess that if they had waited another 30 days there would have been a second larger ring of armed people around the entire fluster cluck. Waco was incredibly stupid, and that is one thing I learned at Waco. Just how stupid the idiots are who are running this country.

Pride goes before a fall, and this group of liberal blood suckers are full of it.

7 posted on 01/10/2013 10:14:50 AM PST by American in Israel (A wise man's heart directs him to the right, but the foolish mans heart directs him toward the left.)
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To: BillM

Your local police will be chafing at the bit to put on their SWAT clothes and get in on the act.

Where were the local police during WACO.?

They were cooperating I would bet.

8 posted on 01/10/2013 10:21:23 AM PST by Venturer
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To: Venturer

I agree with you completely. Trusting the police to protect your rights is a big mistake. Just ask all the family pets that have been killed.

9 posted on 01/10/2013 10:27:19 AM PST by Rusty0604
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To: BillM

Waco was a despicable act and the true face of the Federal government. It was meant to intimidate the sheep. I have not forgotten and I have not forgiven. I hope the Clintons and their gangsters burn in Hell. Give up my arms? Hell, no!

10 posted on 01/10/2013 10:31:27 AM PST by TexasRepublic (Socialism is the gospel of envy and the religion of thieves)
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To: TexasRepublic

I have not forgotton Waco nor Ruby Ridge. I know a lot of people that have either forgotton or never were aware of it.

11 posted on 01/10/2013 10:34:17 AM PST by Rusty0604
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To: BillM; All

Now is the time to rally our side, “Waco and Ruby Ridge” remembered

12 posted on 01/10/2013 10:54:17 AM PST by tiger-one
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A lot went on at Waco that never got any press.

13 posted on 01/10/2013 11:01:42 AM PST by zeugma (Those of us who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.)
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To: American in Israel

Many citizens do have the attention span of a ten year old, and most of them vote liberal.

Recently I was telling a man and wife how liberals make hay out of every disaster, and wanted to give Obama’s inaction during the oil spill, as an example of libs desiring to make a disaster worse in order to gain greater political capital from it.

Both of them looked at each other with a puzzled gape-mouthed look, and said “What oil spill?”

I explained. The BP oil spill. 2010. The skimmers from overseas Obama didn’t want. The American skimmers the government wouldn’t allow to proceed. THAT oil spill.

They said “Oh, that oil spill,” but clearly they only had a dim recollection. “But that was AGES and AGES ago!”

I really look for the day they discover how they broadcast the signals over the television that not only tell people what to think, but also what to forget. Because it isn’t until after you throw away your TV that you discover how many people act like someone’s pulling their strings.

14 posted on 01/10/2013 11:06:43 AM PST by fattigermaster
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To: Venturer
They have guns and are anxious to see how they work.

But isn't that the argument the left uses against gun owners -- that they have guns, and are therefore anxious to see how they work?

If you really believe that police who have guns are driven to use them simply because they have them, doesn't that suggest that the left has a point when they make the same argument about citizens?

I am comfortable arguing that an average citizen gun-owner is as trustworthy with their weapon as a trained officer. I'm not sure I'd argue that civilian gun-owners are MORE trustworthy, on average, than police.

15 posted on 01/10/2013 11:20:59 AM PST by CharlesWayneCT
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To: Rusty0604

Justices Rule Police Do Not Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect Someone (2005 SC case)

16 posted on 01/10/2013 11:26:51 AM PST by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll eventually get what you deserve)
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To: fattigermaster

Perhaps thats it, I have not watched tv in a few weeks. Just never get around to it. Got a more interesting life than swamp guys or storage wars.

However there are Millions of people like us, that have the gift of reality. A lot of people are going to be getting that gift fast when SHTF.

17 posted on 01/10/2013 12:07:00 PM PST by American in Israel (A wise man's heart directs him to the right, but the foolish mans heart directs him toward the left.)
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To: Venturer
Then I hear people saying that if guns are ordered confiscated that other Americans in the police forces will not do Obama’s dirty work for them. Those who think that are wrong. Dead wrong

Absolutely bears repeating. I've read this line from many, here and elsewhere. Like you, I have serious doubts that any of the LEOs and military would hesitate for one second to drop another American dead in their tracks, simply because the regime ordered them to do so.

18 posted on 01/10/2013 12:13:15 PM PST by Sicon ("All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." - G. Orwell)
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To: CharlesWayneCT

I only refer to what happens in their SWAT raids when they shoot people and their dogs.

Civilians and gun owners do not go out in the early morning hours dress up like Wannabee military and beat people’s doors down and shoot their dogs.Obviously they come in charged up and ready to kill.

I don’t know any hunters or civilians that do that, and use the law for cover.I refer to WACO , and Ruby Ridge, and other raids. Once they even shot up the Mayors House in Mt. Ranier, Maryland. A police sniper in Southern Maryland shot and killed a Marine suffering from PTSD.The list is long.
Perhaps some of these police are the bottom of the barrel, but give them the cover of the law and some would as shoot you as not.Not all, but some. That;s my opinion, and I know a lot of people do not agree.

19 posted on 01/10/2013 3:01:27 PM PST by Venturer
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