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To: A_perfect_lady; betty boop
I've noticed this many times: atheists and believers can't find a mutually-agreed upon starting point. Literally, we don't even agree on how to begin. I think this is why the phrase "leap of faith" is so important. One does not move logically into faith. If you did, it wouldn't be faith. I think believers would be much better off not trying to reason or argue atheists into anything. There's no path from logic to faith. It really is a leap.

I think you are correct, Perfect Lady. (As an aside, I think you chose an apt name for yourself. It shows confidence with no pretense or false modesty.)

However, there is a starting point. The argument always revolves around proof and you can't prove either God or No-God. That naturally leads to faith on both sides, not just the pro-God side. So, one good starting point is for the No-God side to recognize and admit that they, too, are operating on faith rather than just dismissing the God believers as fantasizers.

Still, betty boop and friends can do a masterful job with inductive reasoning to build a strong argument in favor of God. I personally am a believer but my meager efforts in these discussions lean toward the emotional aspects of life which deal with the abstracts which are beyond science to a large degree. Such things as beauty, love, awe, sadness, music, poetry, etc., are real, too, but trying to explain them scientifically basically destroys their intrinsic natures.

Evolution vs Creation is a similar argument with the evolution side leaning on what seems to be scientific theory and knowledge but, in reality, is just window dressing to support their theory. Yet, because it is, in most part, based on the physical rather than the mystical it has many adherents.

I think non-believers have three primary motives for favoring physical answers. First, that is our nature as physical beings entrapped within our senses, two, an ego which doesn't want to be embarrassed by their peers for a belief in fairy tales, and three, the desire to escape the confines of the strict moral code of an all-knowing, all-seeing Judge.

Faith in God is not easy. In fact, it is the harder course. First you have to want to believe. Secondly, you have to study and learn as much as you can about it. (I am talking about Christianity in particular but this is true about all religions.) Then you have to frequently and fervently pray for acceptance into God's Kingdom and, through the Grace of God, it is usually granted. That does not rule out the occasional epiphany, or sudden revelation of Truth, but it is the normal way.

Faith in No-God is not nearly as hard but it is a hollow victory. You call feel it, the hollowness, just as a Christian can feel the fullness and peace of their convictions.

I repeat, I agree with you, but that is not the end of the story.

52 posted on 01/02/2012 3:45:19 PM PST by Mind-numbed Robot
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To: Mind-numbed Robot
So, one good starting point is for the No-God side to recognize and admit that they, too, are operating on faith rather than just dismissing the God believers as fantasizers.

This is what I mean when I say there is no starting point. I feel that believers always try to posit this very point, but it is not valid. We do not operate on faith. We simply lack belief. I do not really know why believers dislike this stance, but I notice that they really do.

53 posted on 01/02/2012 6:34:13 PM PST by A_perfect_lady (Anyone opposed to Newt should remember: we're not electing a messiah, we're electing a politician.)
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