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To: Polybius

Poly, you are right – about something, I’m sure, but on matters military you are no Clausewitz, though I admit I didn’t know Clausewitz myself. Are claiming that Churchill and FDR knew nothing about Katyn early on?. That’s novel. Are you denying Winston and Franklin kept the lid on Soviet guilt for Katyn to preserve the wartime alliance with Stalin? Are you saying there were swarms of reporters with press cards from TASS and Beria and Stalin running free like Ernie Pyle around the Eastern Front, covering the USSR-German rape of Poland? In Srebrenica didn’t General Mladic appear on TV in mid-July 1995? I think so. A lot. I was watching on satellite TV. Were you watching CNN or the equally creative cartoon channel?


4 posted on 01/24/2009 5:22:48 PM PST by maher (m)
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To: maher
Poly, you are right – about something, I’m sure, but on matters military you are no Clausewitz, though I admit I didn’t know Clausewitz myself.

Yeah, whatever.

Are claiming that Churchill and FDR knew nothing about Katyn early on?. That’s novel.

This article claims that, because, in the articles own words, "THE PRESSTITUTES" (the Western news media) had a one month long delay in reporting the massacre, then the massacre must be a fiction just like the claim that " Poland attacked Germany on 1 September 1939".

WTF does "The lag time between as yet unbaptized “Srebrenica Massacre” on 10-11 July 1995 and the first press reports is over a month" have to do with the what Churchill or FDR "knew" or, vastly more accurately, "suspected" about "Katyn early on"?

But, just for educational purposes let's examine your issue of what Churchill and FDR "knew" about Katyn. Since you bring up Clausewitz, you certainly know that Clausewitz stressed the concept of the "Fog of War" which states that, in war, the line of distinction between what the commander "knows" or "suspects" or has been "told" or has been "confirmed" about what is going on behind enemy lines is as perfectly clear as the morning fog.

What did Churchill and FDR "know" about Katyn early on?

They "KNEW" squat.

They may have "suspected" all sorts of things but they "KNEW" squat.

Churchill and FDR might have "suspected the Soviets killed them", they might have "been told the Soviets killed them", they might have "believed the Soviets killed them" but all they actually "knew" was that thousands of Polish prisoners were unaccounted for.

Even the Polish Government in exile did not "know" the fate of Polish prisoners and those Polish prisoners totaled a quarter of a million POW's and 1.5 million deportees in Soviet prison camps. When the Sikorski-Mayski Agreement was signed between the Polish Government in exile and the Soviet Union on July 30th, 1941 to form common cause in the war against Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union agreed to release their Polish POW's but brushed off Polish inquiries about the absence of specific Polish officers not accounted for by claiming that the Poles in question had been released from POW camps in Manchuria but that the Soviet Union had "lost track of them" after their release.

That was what was "KNOW" about the missing Poles "early on".

What was "KNOWN" was exactly as much as is "KNOWN" today about American MIA's that some Americans today claim died in combat, some Americans today claim were captured and killed and some Americans today claim are still being held prisoners to this day.

Since, in your naive and uneducated view of History, Clausewitz's Fog of War does not exist, tell us, maher, what really happened to all those American MIA's. You surely must "KNOW".

Only after the graves were discovered by the Germans in April 1943 and produced physical evidence did it become "known" for certain that those Poles were dead and not wandering through Siberia on their way back to Poland.

Are you denying Winston and Franklin kept the lid on Soviet guilt for Katyn to preserve the wartime alliance with Stalin?

On 15 April 1943 during a conversation with Polish General Sikorski, Churchill stated, "Alas, the German revelations are probably true. The Bolsheviks can be very cruel."

On 24 April 1943 Churchill assured the Soviets: "We shall certainly oppose vigorously any 'investigation' by the International Red Cross or any other body in any territory under German authority. Such investigation would be a fraud and its conclusions reached by terrorism."

That's called Realpolitik. Churchill "suspected" Soviet guilt but did nothing to anger the Soviets.

What does a SUSPICION of Soviet guilt by Churchill in 1943 have to do with what Churchill KNEW for certain about Katyn?

What does a SUSPICION of the presence of WMD's inside Iraq by George W. Bush on the day the Iraq War was launched have to do with what George W. Bush KNEW for certain about WMD's inside Iraq by George W. Bush on the day the Iraq War was launched?

You do not "KNOW" for certain about the truth of the physical evidence until somebody digs it up. You do not "KNOW" for certain about WHO did WHAT until you find the evidence or the evidence to provided to you.

The West did not "KNOW" for certain about the truth of Katyn until 13 April 1990 when the USSR formally expressed "profound regret" and admitted Soviet secret police responsibility for the Katyn Massacre.

Are you saying there were swarms of reporters with press cards from TASS and Beria and Stalin running free like Ernie Pyle around the Eastern Front, covering the USSR-German rape of Poland?

What does this absurd non sequitur have to do with what happened at Katyn or what happened at Srebrenica and their subsequent discoveries and documentation?

Are you making the absurd claim that, because Western reporters were present in Bosnia and given guided tours by Serbs, that they could freely go where they pleased and dig where they pleased and produce a documentry entitled "CNN Takes Miami CSI to Bosnia"? What the Hell is your point with this non sequitur?

In Srebrenica didn’t General Mladic appear on TV in mid-July 1995? I think so. A lot. I was watching on satellite TV. Were you watching CNN or the equally creative cartoon channel?

What does this absurd non sequitur have to do with what Srebrenica massacre or with the price of tea in China?

Is it your ridiculous claim that, because a Dog & Pony Show is staged that nothing could possibly be going on that is out of the ordinary?

You have never heard of Theresienstadt?

Are you so naive about History that you actually believe that the absence of a press report means that something never happened? Are you so naive about History that you actually believe that press reports about the Red Cross finding Jews very well treated at Theresienstadt with even musical instruments for orchestras being provided for them means that the Holocaust never happened?

Your reliance upon TV reports and TV appearances as a conclusive primary source for exculpatory evidence for a massacre in a war zone is beyond ridiculous and beyond naive.

Either that or you know exactly what you are doing and are doing the age-old job of the apologist.

8 posted on 01/25/2009 10:11:59 AM PST by Polybius
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