Fear of The West In Russia

Washington Post ^ | May 2, 2006 | Masha Lipman

[Gay State Conservative]

Note to the Russian people:

You,unlike the East Germans,don't have the luxury of looking to West Russia to bail you out of your 75 year long plunge into political,social and economic darkness.

Add to that the fact that your affinity for vodka is causing your life expectancy to drop,putting you in the same league as Zimbabwe.

You can remain victims,or you can,with your enormous resources,pull your socks up and join the 21st Century.

[Admin Moderator]

Tone it down, or I'll tone it down my way.

[Lion in Winter]

His post is a vile personal attack against me as an American.

[GarySpFc]

Russia has always and probably will always be a paranoid nation that loathes the wests standing in the world.Keep on riding that train into oblivion friends because soon your neighbor China will dwarf you in military power. We have extended a hand to the russians because they could be a great ally but they always slap it away due to xenophobia.

Mark,with all due respect you might want to read the article I posted a link to on this thread. Russia, likewise, wanted to be an ally to the US, but the slapping and parnoia has come from some quarters on both sides.

[Romanov]

Here's where Lippman was pretty much spot on with her observations (I'll ad my own personal first-hand based observations):

"The hardships of the early post-communist years caused bitter disillusionment. The insecurity and disparities in wealth under fledgling capitalism brought anxiety and resentment."

A lot of Russians expected that with the declaration of "freedom" and "democracy" there would be instant wealth and higher-living standards. They had heard all of the successful capitalism/democracy (two different things) on the BBC, VOA, RFE, Deutsche Welle, etc., during the Cold War, but they had no real idea that the West, in particular the United States took years to reach the level we are at and that without a consistent stable democratically run government wealth and higher-living standards are unattainable.

"The task of reforming a nation crippled and demoralized by decades under an inhuman regime proved insurmountable. It would have taken a true visionary to mobilize the Russian people and pursue the path of modernization."

Unfortunately, what they got was a Russian president who meant well (Yeltsin) but whose own personal demons made him susceptable to corrupt henchmen and his own daughters' desire for immense wealth and privilege. The irony being that Yeltsin gained his popularity by being the sole "Communist party leader" actually cracking down on corruption (in the waning days of the Soviet Union). Also, the little guy (the old, the veterans, etc) were ripped off by the likes of Berezovsky and Gusinsky and the other oligarchs who got rich by robbing and cheating people out of their government issued property vouchers.

Add to this that the US, under Klintoon, (and led by Gore on the Chernomyrdyn-Gore Commission), looked the other way at the Russian kleptocracy.

"And Vladimir Putin is no visionary. He addressed his nation's pain and anger by offering a return to traditional paternalism -- a model that people welcomed with a sense of relief. For even if the government was habitually self-seeking, incompetent and corrupt, it was once again possible for people to avoid making choices and assuming responsibility for Russia's future."

Two things here - 1.) Putin was put into place by Yeltsin - some say it was because of his inexperience in politics that Yeltsin was convinced (by Berezovsky?) to anoint him successor. This argument may be born out by the fact that Putin gave Yeltsin and his family immunity from prosecution. 2.) Masha nailed what a lot of Russians I know suffer from - the yearning for a paternalistic government so that they can absolve themselves of any responsibility for their own woes. It's sort of like the "welfare syndrome" we have in the States.

70+ years of the Communist horror is a hard thing to shake off in a few years. Especially with the disaster that became Yeltsin's legacy. There are some very talented and honest people in Russia, they deserve to be supported - but I don't see a light at the end of their tunnel of problems....

[don-o]

Why not delete the crap rather than SMB?

[Thunder90]

Russian orthodox church=Communist corrupted version of orthodoxy. It is the equlivent of the Chinese controlled Catholic church in China.

[GarySpFc]

Russian orthodox church=Communist corrupted version of orthodoxy. It is the equlivent of the Chinese controlled Catholic church in China.

I would agree with you if it was the same church under the communists, however there have been many changes since the fall of the Iron Curtain. My best friend, Greg, is a conservative evangelical pastor and theologian in the UMC. As part of his education he spent two years in Russia during the late eighties studying their language to earn a BA in Russian from SMU. Every year he returns to teach in a seminary, and also works as the liaison between the two denominations. When the Iron Curtain fell a majority of the ROC priests in Russia were theological illiterates, and the UMC helped finance the education for many of their priests at Holy Trinity Seminary in New York. Holy Trinity is the largest Russian Orthodox seminary outside of Russia. The ROC has come a long ways, and they are by no means a liberal denomination. BTW, I am not Russian Orthodox.

[spanalot]

Yeah - and the RWC will have you believe that the ROC has changed - however the above incident happened just months ago and we played dumb while this "priest" pontificated of US "Genocide" , US "imperialism", and how great mother Russia was.

It was the same crap we get from the RWC.

[GarySpFc]

Ping

[Jezebelle]

The Russian people are steeped in decades of a mindest of servitude and dependency. This is seen in the flood of Soviet Bloc immigrants into the U.S.. They don't understand private property, education, how to work within a system of functional government and economic structures and institutions, including accessing capital. If they can't adapt and succeed here within our system, how can they succeed in the corrupted government, black markets, and gangster economy of Russia? It's not that different than trying to understand Mexico.

[x5452]

Holy Trinity isn't part of the church in Russia.

They are a ROCOR (or Russian Church Abroad) church. They were the church of the Tsarist white army which the bolsehviks defeated. They are feircly anti-communism and also again those who caved into working with the communist as did Metropolitan Sergei.

However even they today are in talks at communion with the Moscow Patriarchate and are largely convinced that the church in Russia is no longer a functionary of the government or secret police.

This is from a conference they had with the MP:
http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/01newstucture/pagesen/english/pages/news/day2.html

There are certainly some detractors in ROCOR who harbor the same fears some on this forum do about the Russian church and a handful of their parishes have threatened a split if the two do come into union.

Also of note, the ROCOR churches have done much to preserve Orthodoxy as it was in the pre revolution days. Most of their churches also have schools which operate on Saturdays from 9-2 teaching Russian history (obviously not a pro soviet version), religion, culture, and language.

Their seminary also has written many books on the faith and sent books and church materials into Russia during the cold war, even setting up some parishes.

The monastary itself can be seen here:
http://www.jordanville.org/

ROCOR are very conservative the liturgy goes at least 2 hours, and they stand the whole time, they are fiercly anti-abortion, etc.

[x5452]

what centrury are you living in? i know dozens of russian immigrants, and they are nothin like you describe, further having been to russia i can assure you capitalizm is AT LEAST as well practiced over there but without things like mandatory insurance, and other crap 'to protect consumers'.

[Romanov]

"Yeah - and the RWC will have you believe that the ROC has changed - however the above incident happened just months ago and we played dumb while this "priest" pontificated of US "Genocide" , US "imperialism", and how great mother Russia was.

It was the same crap we get from the RWC."

And the "Fake Dissident Parents in the GULag/I was interrogated by the KGB but I don't speak Russian" Club will have you believe that any evil done upon Russia is good for mankind. The "FDPITGIWIBTKGBBIDSRC" (known by it's shorter acronym "PHONEY PATRIOT Club" (PPC) will just make up stories and hope the lemmings believe.

[Romanov]

"The Russian people are steeped in decades of a mindest of servitude and dependency. This is seen in the flood of Soviet Bloc immigrants into the U.S.. They don't understand private property, education, how to work within a system of functional government and economic structures and institutions, including accessing capital. If they can't adapt and succeed here within our system, how can they succeed in the corrupted government, black markets, and gangster economy of Russia? It's not that different than trying to understand Mexico."

WHAT? Do you actually know any Russian immigrants? They've been more successful as a group than a lot of the other immigrant groups here.

And as far as Russians in Russia unable to "succeed in the corrupted government, black markets, and gangster economy of Russia" -Why do you think the corrupted government, black markets and gangster economies in Russia flourish? Because the people are willing to look the other way on these things as long as they can "play" as well.

[Romanov]

"Yeah - and the RWC will have you believe that the ROC has changed - however the above incident happened just months ago and we played dumb while this "priest" pontificated of US "Genocide" , US "imperialism", and how great mother Russia was.

It was the same crap we get from the RWC."

PPC (Phoney Patriot Club) is back to work again.

[GarySpFc]

They don't understand private property, education, how to work within a system of functional government and economic structures and institutions, including accessing capital. If they can't adapt and succeed here within our system, how can they succeed in the corrupted government, black markets, and gangster economy of Russia?

::::Shaking head at ignorance:::: Russians can own private property, and quite frankly their education is superior to ours. My wife was an educator and child psychologist in Volgograd, with two masters degrees. From everything I have seen, from what she tells me, and from other friends it is obvious to me their education up to the doctorate level is superior, but not beyond that. They can have Bible classes in their schools too. Additionally, the Russian economy is growing at a much higher rate than ours. My Russian mutual fund returned 51.9% last year and is up 32% this year.

[GarySpFc]

I hate to tell you but auto insurance is mandatory in Russia now.

[x5452]

yeah but it's only basic coverage and no where near where we are now...

[Romanov]

Foreigners in Russia can own private property as well (with limitations). I rented an apartment from an American.