Elizabeth Smart Thread, 9/26/02 to ???

[stlnative]

NEW THREAD - PING WHOM EVER YOU LIKE - I DON'T PING ANYMORE - SORRY

[cherry]

Jennifer Short case ....did you all hear that they found some small bones about 30 miles away from her home?

The authorities will have initial test results back from the lab in the Am on some hair that was found with the skull....

what an incredible evil summer it has been ....so many little girls especially just taken, abused, killed.....but maybe this happens all the time....maybe this summer we are just more aware....

[stlnative]

Small Skull Found; May Be Jennifer Short's

Wednesday, September 25, 2002

STONEVILLE, N.C. — Authorities and search dogs descended on a rural area where a small human skull was found Wednesday, some 30 miles from where a 9-year-old Virginia girl disappeared last month.

The officials included a contingent from Henry County, Va., where police have been hunting for Jennifer Short since Aug. 15. Officials believe the girl was kidnapped after her parents were slain in their Henry County home.

The skull "appears to be from somebody young," said Jeannie Justice, a spokeswoman for the Sheriff's Office in Rockingham County.

Investigators brought a sample of hair from the skull and other evidence found here to Roanoke, Va., where Jennifer's belongings are being held, in an attempt to make a preliminary finding. Results of the analysis were to be announced Thursday, Henry County investigators said.

Until then, authorities said, they would not speculate on the remains or whether they had any connection to the missing girl.

"We're not sophisticated enough to determine this," Rockingham County Sheriff Sam Page said.

Rockingham County resident Eddie Albert discovered the skull Wednesday afternoon after noticing his two dogs tossing around what he at first thought was a brown wig, said his daughter, Lisa Albert.

"There were small fragments of jaw, teeth and other bones strewn all over the place," Page said.

Authorities searched for the rest of the body Wednesday night. They drained a pond near Albert's property, but there was no immediate indication whether anything had been found.

The girl disappeared almost six weeks ago. For days after her disappearance, authorities combed the rolling hills behind her parents' house on horseback and four-wheelers. Search dogs only picked up the girl's scent in the house and the neighboring convenience store, where the family regularly shopped.

Jennifer's parents, Michael Short, 50, and Mary Hall Short, 36, were shot to death in their red-brick ranch house along busy U.S. 220, about 35 miles south of Roanoke. No arrests have been made.

Wednesday's discovery comes four days after a Henry County judge made Jennifer's uncle and aunt her legal guardians

[cherry]

thx Bridge....you never sleep do you....lol

[stlnative]

Yeah sometimes. I am a night owl by nature and I have been this way since I was born. It drove my mother nuts and I barely made through school, I am now 36 years old. I sleep in the morning from about 5am to 10am.

I have been busy here lately building a website for a client and have been popping in here when I can to read the latest news and thoughts on the case. I do wish I did not have to read so much bickering between people here on the ES Thread, it is really causing me to loose interest in the case. Oh well it time to go back to work on the website :-) Take Care...!

[Devil_Anse]

Very good thoughts about kids' rooms. That is exactly my thinking as well. I knew enough people growing up who had their own TV's in their rooms. And as you say, nowadays some kids' rooms lack only a kitchen to be a private apartment. And check this out: with some of these people with the multi-wing houses, I've heard them refer to "the door the kids use." Their own door? LOL! If one of us had tried to get to the door to sneak out, it would have been like a prison break, probably only lacking the big searchlights!

"Everyone" has their own computer, say my kids. Also their own TV, and on and on. Sure--so those kids can sit and play computer games 23 or so hours a day. BTW, in my opinion, that's what most kids do when they get unlimited access--not surf the web, although some teenagers, particularly girls, do go to chat rooms a lot. I almost had a fit when I found out that the calculator that someone "just had to have" for math, can also be used for little games. It's hard to get them away from those games!

As for our 2 TV's, my spouse really wants the cable. Otherwise I don't think I'd bother, I'd get over it. I know people who can well afford it who do not have cable; their kids are so ashamed, LOL! The "parent" thing you use to block certain channels? The kids periodically use it to block each other's favorite channels. We end up with things like ESPN blocked, and only one person knows the code. It's terrible when they forget what code they used. One time the kids decided WE and Oxygen were icky, and blocked them. That caused a big stir!

As for their seeing something gross on TV, well, the rooms with the 2 TV's are not private, so anyone can, and does, walk in at any time. Ditto for the computer. That's the only way.

Some people WANT the kids to be in their own private wing. I can see wanting a break from the chaos sometimes, but everyone needs to be in common areas in the evening, why have a family if they don't even know each other? If people don't want to raise 'em, they shouldn't have 'em!

[Devil_Anse]

Could [Mary Katherine] have been mistaken about the time?

Yes! Good thought.

[Devil_Anse]

Maybe the neighbors weren't told about an 'armed man'...

Exactly. This raises these possibilities, IMO:

1. The neighbors weren't told about an armed man b/c Ed and Lois hadn't yet gotten all that Mary K. had to tell out of her. Ed just took off running when she said Elizabeth was gone, he searched his own property, then went running to the neighbors; he didn't want the details at that time, b/c like most of us, he'd heard that quick action is very important when a child is missing, and quick action was his priority.

2. The neighbors weren't told about an armed man b/c Ed and/or Lois hadn't yet made up that part of the story.

[Devil_Anse]

This thing about the skull is very sad. I had really had hope that maybe Jennifer's natural father had decided to take her and raise her (though obviously beginning his "custody campaign" with a double murder doesn't speak well for his ability to care for Jennifer!!)

Now we hear this. It doesn't look good. This is really, really sad. Poor little girl.

[Devil_Anse]

About Ricci's supposedly having said that he was out with friends the night of June 4, and about his supposedly having said he was at some drug clinic on the morning of June 5, with that turning out to be false:

So far, I've found the mention of these things back on the other forum where I discussed them with others. The thing about the friends was discussed on June 26. I have to go back again and see what sources people posted and see if any of the articles contained this. It should be a very narrow window, since I am thinking most people hadn't heard about Ricci till June 24.

As for the drug rehab thing, it, too was discussed, right around the beginning of the talk about Ricci. On this one, maybe it was a misunderstanding of the fact that Ricci was supposed to be keeping up with a drug program, but wasn't. (That was one reason the request for revocation of his parole was filed.) If it was a misunderstanding, you can crow about that one--but I'm not finished looking it up, it may be from some TV report. I am sure the thing about his supposedly lying and saying he was at a drug clinic the morning of June 4 was discussed on a forum, not just the one I went back and scanned. I know a forum is not a very good source, but it was out there.

If this stuff came from TV reports back when they were making them frequently, I'll just have to rely on the memories of others who listened to all the TV reports. But I'm still looking for it in print.

Poor old Ricci...he can't tell us now! How sad if he was misunderstood. (ahem)

[Neenah]

If it was a misunderstanding, you can crow about that one--

I know you said that "tongue in cheek", but that is not the case at all...I am really interested in knowing about this!! Don't knock yourself out looking..if you can't find it, that is understandable.

I am sure some lurkers, or frequent poster's will maybe recall this. The reason I asked about it, is I thought I had a pretty good sketch on most of the goings on, and this one was new to me.

Thanks for checking it out.

[Sherlock]

Yet people on this thread had it all figured out and worked it so Ricci did it, right down to being the ROAST PIG GUY..or used a POST HOLE DIGGER to dig for a BODY for crying out loud!! It almost makes me laugh to remember that. That is why I started posting stupid pictures. This thing is so absurd that I would hate to tell anyone of the things that are discussed here!!

Let me remind you of your record of predicting who's guilty. You obviously supported this or you wouldn't have posted it:

To: All

This is just a short interruption here...THIS is one brilliant poster in the Van Dam case, that explains the RUSH TO JUDGEMENT in the Van Dam case. This is documented, and I find it a wonderful explanation, that has been discussed over and over for two months by FReepers. NOT CONSPIRACY ZELOTS...but real people who are paying attention, and calling FOUL.

Here it is......(and I will not post more on it, but something to think about as we are being called conspiracy all the time people....there is TOO MUCH EVIDENCE that has to be recieved, before we can make a blanketed statement on WHO did this Elizabeth Smart crime.....read these facts, that are told over and over on the VD thread, and summed up here......*************************************************

It was never determined that the stain was actually blood. The test they ran indicated it COULD HAVE been blood. They did not run the test to actually determine whether it was blood or not. I don't know how to explain in scientific terms, but FReepers have gone over this in prior threads.

There was no blood seen on his jacket by the cleaners at any time ... before cleaning or after cleaning. The police picked up the jacket before Westerfield got it back. Lo and behold, "blood" was found on it. One FReeper mentioned that heat destroys DNA, so how could any "blood" DNA have survived the heat of dry cleaning?

As far as the palm print is concerned, they never found any of her prints in the motorhome until AFTER they found her body and rehydrated her hands. Then they went back to check ... and lo and behold, they found a print. Come to your own conclusion. I did. This has also been discussed in detail in prior threads.

The San Diego Police Department has been documented in planting false evidence in prior cases. Discussed on prior threads.

The close personal friend who advised Brenda Van Dam from the beginning is a retired policewoman. The head of a local swinger club is a retired policeman. There's more police & PR firm involvement/friendships that makes one suspicious as to Westerfield's being made a scapegoat and railroaded for a crime he didn't commit.

One of the child pornographers caught by a Swedish crime team lives in the same town as the Van Damns. Another one lives in San Diego, a short distance away. There are videos of them raping little children. Danielle could have wandered outside and been picked up by that porno group. One person was arrested in January, I think it was - and the other person was arrested TWO DAYS after Danielle's body was found. It has been speculated they had to get rid of her to keep from getting charged with her abuse, too.

There's a whole lot more stuff. Too much to go into in a short comment here. Like the blue paint under her fingernails, the dark hair under her body, unidentified fingerprints, unidentified blood, DNA in her bed, etc etc etc. NONE of this can be traced to Westerfield. NOR HAS IT BEEN SUBJECTED TO FORENSIC TESTING. Just some stupid fibers that are common (similar to) in today's WalMart market.

And they ignored the blood on her pajamas and beanbag chair, by the way. They didn't test the spot in the carpet either that Demon VanDam steam cleaned before the police got there. They didn't identify the fingerprints on the outside door or the blood on the cement outside or the drag marks outside. They didn't put her journal into testimony where she has some very telling comments - the type of comments that sexually-abused children use.

But all of that evidence in the Van Dam home can never be tested in the future. They re-carpeted and re-painted the entire house. All evidence is lost forever. We will never know, probably, the real killer of little Danielle.

I believe Westerfield was set up by a swingers group and that he is not just "not guilty" but that he is INNOCENT of this horrible crime.

Post # 59, Aug. 9, 2000 DELIBERATIONS RESUME

52 posted on 8/9/02 12:22 PM Central by Neenah

[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 50 | View Replies | Report

[Sherlock]

This is just a short interruption here...THIS is one brilliant poster in the Van Dam case, that explains the RUSH TO JUDGEMENT in the Van Dam case. This is documented, and I find it a wonderful explanation, that has been discussed over and over for two months by FReepers. NOT CONSPIRACY ZELOTS...but real people who are paying attention, and calling FOUL.

Sorry, I forgot to BOLD this part.

[hergus]

Authorities Doubt Remains Are Those of Jennifer Short

Modified: 9/26/2002 11:08:30 AM
Stoneville, Rockingham County -
WFMY TV
At a 9:45 a.m. Press Conference in Rockingham County, Henry County Virginia Sheriff Frank Cassell says microscopic examination of the hair sample taken from the skeletal remains found near Stoneville yesterday are back. Initial tests indicate that the remains are not those of Jennifer Short, the little Bassett, Virginia girl missing since mid-August.

The bones were found Wednesday afternoon on Grogan Road near Stoneville. Tests in Virginia were based on DNA analysis which right now indicates there's not a match. However, bone samples are also being sent to the state medical examiner in North Carolina. Tests there will look at the actual age of the victim and other specific information, as well as how long the bones have likely been exposed to the elements in some way.

Sheriff Cassell says they've had several leads in the past week, into the disappearance of Jennifer Short, but those have not panned out. She's been missing for nearly 6 weeks, since her parents, Michael and Mary Short were found shot to death in their Bassett, Virginia home August 15.

Rockingham County deputies will continue their search of the area where the remains were found, including a pond which they drained overnight. Rockingham County Sheriff Sam Page says some additional bone fragments have been located, but nothing such as clothing or personal effects that might help with the
identification. Rockingham County says they do not currently have any missing persons cases, but have sent out messages to other law enforcement agencies who might have an interest in the case.

[Neenah]

You are propagating a myth. Why would the police say there was a gun if there was not? What possible motive would LE have for that particular deception? Why are you assuming that all 40-50 neighbors knew there was a gun?,

The question was proposed to freedox, I read it and posted to the question directed to her., but you forgot to post the REASON why I thought that, so let me refresh you.

I said after what you posted of my comment.....:If it was known by the police that there was a gun involved and a threat of killing if MK told...there is NO WAY the PD would allow people to free roam.

We have NO WAY of knowing if the police were told about the gun at that point. We don't know if MK really said it. We don't know when Ed told the police that. We don't know why if Ed knew she was taken with a gun, why he didn't tell them. We don't know if Ed questioned his daughter first to get all the facts, or just ran to the neighbors pounding on doors. We don't know any of it. It would be speculation on my part as well as yours.

Common sense says a parent lovingly asks the daughter for all the details, after all, one of the girls is kidnapped. So my question all along was ..Why would the police allow those people to free roam if there was a gun involved?

If they didn't know that at the time, then that could explain alot of things, wouldn't it? Sometime that night they found out about the gun, because in the morning there was a Press Conference, and Dinse said E was taken at gunpoint. When did they get the information ? If you can't see this as at least warrenting questions, then so be it.

I would like to believe that the information from MK came out later that night. That would be the best answer to it.

[Neenah]

Just making the point that the heart of this case is the eyewitness testimony of Mary K.--not some intricate forensic evidence. Just as you said--it comes down to Mary Katherine.

I completely agree with you!

[Neenah]

Yes and I laugh at your ridiculous notions as well.

1069 posted on 9/26/02 4:03 AM Central by sandude

Well, thank you, dude!! I especially thank you, cause you said last night to UG that you had to be to work at 4:00 a.m., and to know you had me on your mind at 4:03 a.m. just warms my widdle heart.

Have a good day, dude

[freedox]

From the Deseret News, 06/15/02:

"(Tom) Smart said he spent the night before Elizabeth's kidnapping shooting a Utah Starzz game at the Delta Center for the Deseret News. After work, Smart said he returned home about 11 p.m., spoke with his wife briefly, took a sleeping pill and went to bed.

He was awakened by a phone call about 3:30 a.m. It was his brother Edward calling with the news Elizabeth was missing.

Tom Smart said he and his family left their house shortly after Edward's call and arrived at the crime scene to find yellow police tape in front of the house.

After meeting with other family members at his father's house around the corner, Tom Smart said he returned with other family members to Elizabeth's home. They found the kitchen window open and the screen cut.

"Whether that's what they did or not, I don't know," Tom Smart said. "I didn't look at it under a microscope to find out if I knew which direction it had been cut from."

I just ran across this, and found it interesting in light of yesterday's debate about who arrived where when, etc. It has been said that Tom lives in Park City, about 45 minutes from Ed's home. From this, I would assume that he probably arrived at Ed's house by about 4:30 a.m. or shortly thereafter. According to Tom, the "crime scene" was cordoned off with police tape when he arrived. According to the latest police reports, however, the house wasn't secured until 3 hours after the police arrived, at approximately 7 a.m.

The presence of yellow police tape would seem to clearly indicate that some attempt was being made to treat this as a crime scene......yet Tom, Ed and the police all acknowledge that people were allowed to come and go. Some have suggested that the police didn't have enough manpower to restrain people from the scene. If this was the case, why didn't they call for more officers? Come to think of it, why would they NEED officers there to restrain people? The presence of police tape speaks for itself......surely the residents of Federal Heights wouldn't have to be physically restrained from crossing a police tape barrier. They would know what it meant.

If the tape was there, as Tom says, the police DID view this as a crime scene from early on. Why were no efforts made to protect it? Why did 40-50 people (according to Ed) ignore the tape? Chief Dinse's "mistakes were made" comments don't even begin to explain this.

[freedox]

"Just making the point that the heart of this case is the eyewitness testimony of Mary K.--not some intricate forensic evidence. Just as you said--it comes down to Mary Katherine."

I couldn't agree more.

Since I have been focussing on the events of the night of the abduction, another thought has occurred to me. It has been told that there were up to 40-50 friends and neighbors on the scene that night. Did ANY of them speak to Mary Katherine? Where was Mary Katherine during all of this? We have been told that neighbors went into the girls' bedroom to comfort Lois, but there has been no mention of anyone speaking with Mary Katherine. Where was she? One would think that she would have been the focus of attention that night! Surely she wasn't whisked into seclusion THAT quickly......and if she was, where was she taken and by whom?

[Neenah]

I think she fell asleep. To me, that's the only rational explanation for the two hour time lapse. Two hours is an awfully long time for anyone, let alone a child, to sit in the dark, terrified and unable to move. She didn't have to walk a long distance to get to her parents' bedroom, and it's not like the gunman was active in the house the whole time.

Really? You actually think a little 9 yr. old girl, see's her sister who she shares a room with, taken at gunpoint, is threatened if she talks, her sister will be harmed, watches her leave your room with a gun pointed at her...would then fall asleep?

Wow, cookie !!

I think that if you would have left off "I THINK SHE FELL ASLEEP" off that paragraph, you would have been dead on correct. That is how I feel too !!!