Posted on 07/26/2002 11:29:06 AM PDT by HairOfTheDog
Welcome to The Green Dragon Inn
This is a chapter discussion of The Two Towers, volume two of the Lord of the Rings. It is a continuation of our discussion of Lord of the Rings that started with Fellowship of the Ring and finished a few weeks back. FoTR discussion thread.
We will cover one section of the book per week. Sometimes short, related chapters may be combined, and the process may evolve as we go to keep everybody happy! If you are joining late, jump right in, but please stick to the chapter currently being discussed. We should be a bit careful with topic and spoilers (especially if we are joined by some reading for the first time) but feel free to draw lines related to other events in the story. If you do misbehave too much you will be sent to Took's Corner. As always, if you want to chit-chat or share other news… I would probably be best to post that in The Hobbit Hole thread.
It is OK this time to share images from the Two Towers (that illustrate the current chapter of course!) They are fun snapshots that show our story coming to life. Use your head, we don't want to slow down the thread too much, but most of us love a few pics in the thread.
Every week I will ping you to the new chapter or section …. Let me know if you would like to be on - or off - this list. I will serve as the Thain of the list.
So lets read, listen and become inspired by the many aspects of The Lord of the Rings that touch us deeply and reconnect us to the values we aspire to. Many great discussions have already been had, and I hope that this thread will produce even more. Many FReepers have wonderful things to say about LoTR, whether the fantasy reconnects them with their faith, with their relationships with friends and family, or simply illustrates the splendor of great acts of heroism and sacrifice in the constant battle of virtue versus corruption.
Besides, we Tolkien fans need something to keep us busy while we wait for the film to come out December 19. This thread will adjust the schedule as necessary to be finished before the film comes out!
LOL! That's what I think. I can't help thinking that he had "strong feelings" about Vatican II and wondering if those feelings would have made it into the story.
Hullo friends! We are off to a great start! I thought I would give a little Monday ping to the group to remind everyone of our quest and make sure that all who would like to participate get started before we get too far ahead!
The start of the thread has inspired many to think big thoughts about the story and its meaning! – Wonderful! – I am glad so many are participating right off the bat! - Careful we don't say all the great things at the beginning! We have a long way to go!
We have thought through the choices the characters make at the beginning of this volume, and thought through the ramifications of the characters choosing any other path than the one they did… And I wanted to bring us back a bit to the chapters at hand and make sure we have covered all the ground we need to cover in the text… I will do that by posting some excerpts from Chapter 2, along with some of the beautiful images already available from the film. (it is a good excuse, IMHO, to post some of the stunning images that Jackson has given us of our story)
The Riders of Rohan
At dusk they halted again. Now twice twelve leagues they had passed over the plains of Rohan and the wall of the Emyn Muil was lost in the shadows of the East. The young moon was glimmering in a misty sky, but it gave small light, and the stars were veiled.'Now do I most grudge a time of rest or any halt in our chase ' said Legolas. 'The Orcs have run before us, as if the very whips of Sauron were behind them. I fear they have already reached the forest and the dark hills, and even now are passing into the shadows of the trees.' Gimli ground his teeth. 'This is a bitter end to our hope and to all our toil!' he said.
'To hope, maybe, but not to toil,' said Aragorn. 'We shall not turn back here. Yet I am weary.' He gazed back along the way that they had come towards the night gathering in the East. 'There is something strange at work in this land. I distrust the silence. I distrust even the pale Moon. The stars are faint; and I am weary as I have seldom been before, weary as no Ranger should be with a clear trail to follow. There is some will that lends speed to our foes and sets an unseen barrier before us: a weariness that is in the heart more than in the limb.'
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… As nightshade was closing about them Aragorn halted. Only twice in the day's march had they rested for a brief while, and twelve leagues now lay between them and the eastern wall where they had stood at dawn.
'We have come at last to a hard choice,' he said. 'Shall we rest by night, or shall we go on while our will and strength hold?'
'Unless our enemies rest also, they will leave us far behind, if we stay to sleep.' said Legolas. 'Surely even Orcs must pause on the march?' said Gimli. 'Seldom will Orcs journey in the open under the sun. yet these have done so,' said Legolas. 'Certainly they will not rest by night.'
'But if we walk by night, we cannot follow their trail,' said Gimli.
'The trail is straight, and turns neither right nor left, as far as my eyes can see,' said Legolas.
'Maybe, I could lead you at guess in the darkness and hold to the line,' said Aragorn; 'but if we strayed, or they turned aside, then when light came there might be long delay before the trail was found again.'
'And there is this also,' said Gimli: 'only by day can we see if any tracks lead away. If a prisoner should escape, or if one should be carried off, eastward, say, to the Great River, towards Mordor, we might pass the signs and never know it.'
'That is true,' said Aragorn. 'But if I read the signs back yonder rightly, the Orcs of the White Hand prevailed, and the whole company is now bound for Isengard. Their present course bears me out.'
'Yet it would be rash to be sure of their counsels,' said Gimli. 'And what of escape? In the dark we should have passed the signs that led you to the brooch.'
'The Orcs will be doubly on their guard since then, and the prisoners even wearier,' said Legolas. 'There will be no escape again, if we do not contrive it. How that is to be done cannot be guessed, but first we must overtake them.'
'And yet even I, Dwarf of many journeys, and not the least hardy of my folk, cannot run all the way to Isengard without any pause ' said Gimli. 'My heart burns me too, and I would have started sooner but now I must rest a little to run the better. And if we rest, then the blind night is the time to do so.'
'I said that it was a hard choice,' said Aragorn. 'How shall we end this debate?'
'You are our guide,' said Gimli, 'and you are skilled in the chase. You shall choose.'
'My heart bids me go on,' said Legolas. 'But we must hold together. I will follow your counsel.'
'You give the choice to an ill chooser,' said Aragorn. 'Since we passed through the Argonath my choices have gone amiss.' He fell silent gazing north and west into the gathering night for a long while…
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…'Riders!' cried Aragorn, springing to his feet. 'Many riders on swift steeds are coming towards us!' 'Yes,' said Legolas, 'there are one hundred and five. Yellow is their hair, and bright are their spears. Their leader is very tall.'
Aragorn smiled. 'Keen are the eyes of the Elves,' he said.
'Nay! The riders are little more than five leagues distant,' said Legolas.
'Five leagues or one,' said Gimli; 'we cannot escape them in this bare land. Shall we wait for them here or go on our way?'
'We will wait,' said Aragorn. 'I am weary, and our hunt has failed. Or at least others were before us; for these horsemen are riding back down the orc-trail. We may get new s from them.'
'Or spears,' said Gimli.
'There are three empty saddles, but I see no hobbits,' said Legolas.
'I did not say that we should hear good news,' said Aragorn. 'But evil or good we will await it here.'…
OK! That gets us a bit further in our story! These riders do bring news, but most of their news is worrisome… Indeed they fought the same company of orcs that our friends are chasing. They believe all were slain, and saw no sign of hobbits. They fear the quest to free Merry and Pippin is hopeless, but they go on.
We are introduced to Éomer of the Rohirrim. Éomer lends them horses, which will speed their journey… But they must promise to return them, and answer to the King in Edoras for their trespass... They promise to come there as soon as they complete their search for their missing companions, for good or ill.
EXCELLENT!!! I couldn't agree more...which is why I am particularly intrigued by the character of Peregrin Took...I don't know if you would agree with me, but the changes the character goes through and the experiences he has seems to me to be the kind that a pilgrim has in the start of his journey.
But I have a feeling I am getting ahead of myself in this. I guess when we get to the chapters with Merry and Pippin I can let fly a bit more...
Other than picking that nit, I have no problem with Jackson's interpretation at all!
I dropped out of the Green Dragon discussion, and pushed through with reading the trilogy aloud to my wife and children at night. We strung out Book 6 for a long time, so are just now on "The Grey Havens." But TTT was my oldest son's favorite book, and is fresh in my mind, so I'll go back and skim some of the responses so far and try to join in!
Thanks again for the great work here.
The contrast is with the Elves as a stylized view of human nature deeply elevated by Grace. With the actual humans more about the muddled middle. As we'll get to later, the human allies of Sauron are redeemable in a way the Orcs are not.
Couldn't agree more. I will say, as an Orthodox Christian, that the theological underpinnings of LOTR are equally consistent with the other non-Roman Catholic branches of what I usually call "sacramental" or "traditional" Christianity - Orthodoxy and (traditional) Anglicanism. CS Lewis, while not Catholic but Anglican, could have conceivably reached down in to his faith to find the raw material for a work like LOTR.
LOTR is , I believe, your basic evangelization literature.
Again, couldn't agree more. I was raised in a lazy agnosticism before converting to Orthodoxy in my 20's. What laid the groundwork for my conversion more than anything else was particular literary works - most strongly LOTR and Shakespeare. Whole books have been written on religious perspectives on LOTR, but just to mention one:
One of the religious meta-themes that has lodged deepest in my heart is that of the long, inevitable defeat. As a Christian, I see this foreshadowed in such mythic stories as that of Ragnorak. Like CSL I see this as a hint of the truth - a genuine slide of the real world towards a triumph by evil. A triumph, however, that will be short-lived due to the inevitable final complete overcoming of evil by a loving God. For this reason, all our victories are bittersweet, as are all our defeats. Because the victories only postpone the coming triumph of evil and the defeats will be redeemed by the ultimate triumph of good.
The image I've carried in my heart since I first encountered Tolkien at 12 is that of the fall of Gondolin, and of the fall of Arnor to the Witch King. All in the back story, but these plot elements - like so much else in LOTR - are infused with a deeply Christian flavor.
Interesting because we're very close to events that will take his relationship with the others - especially with Gimli - in a very different direction. There is a lot of character development happening here, much of it only implied. Certainly the work of a master storyteller.
On your first point, I always pictured the fields of Rohan as greener too, (although that may be a matter of the season they were filming in)... and flatter, like the landscape in the second photo of the orcs running away.
I guess I forgive Jackson for adding the drama of the beautiful landscapes... If I had such grand places available to to me film, I might have taken the same liberties!
On your second point... Legolas does very much become the drover here, tireless in the chase, and almost irritated at the fatigue of the others.
Perhaps Tolkien is simply reminding us of the superiority of the race of elves... But the last paragraph of my first excerpt has Aragorn complaining that there may be something sinister at work...
[Aragorn] '...I am weary as I have seldom been before, weary as no Ranger should be with a clear trail to follow. There is some will that lends speed to our foes and sets an unseen barrier before us: a weariness that is in the heart more than in the limb.'
It is not clear whether the devilry is real or imagined, but Tolkien is hinting that some devilry of Saruman is at work that is hitting Aragorn and Gimli while not affecting Legolas so much... Is it because of his superiority of endurance, or because of some other power of resistance the elves have to the spells of Saruman? Remember Legolas was also not slowed at Caradhras when the others were defeated by the snow.
Clearly they needed Legolas's prodding to continue at the pace they needed to move at. Aragorn's fatigue wants to slow them, and he is full of self-doubt about his decisions.
'To hope, maybe, but not to toil,' said Aragorn. 'We shall not turn back here. Yet I am weary.' He gazed back along the way that they had come towards the night gathering in the East. 'There is something strange at work in this land. I distrust the silence. I distrust even the pale Moon. The stars are faint; and I am weary as I have seldom been before, weary as no Ranger should be with a clear trail to follow. There is some will that lends speed to our foes and sets an unseen barrier before us: a weariness that is in the heart more than in the limb.''Truly!' said Legolas. 'That I have known since first we came down from the Emyn Muil. For the will is not behind us but before us.' He pointed away over the land of Rohan into the darkling West under the sickle moon. 'Saruman!' muttered Aragorn. 'But he shall not turn us back! Halt we must once more; for, see! even the Moon is falling into gathering cloud. But north lies our road between down and fen when day returns.'
As before Legolas was first afoot, if indeed he had ever slept. 'Awake! Awake!' he cried. 'It is a red dawn. Strange things await us by the eaves of the forest. Good or evil, I do not know; but we are called. Awake!'
The others sprang up, and almost at once they set off again. Slowly the downs drew near. It was still an hour before noon when they reached them: green slopes rising to bare ridges that ran in a line straight towards the North. At their feet the ground was dry and the turf short, but a long strip of sunken land, some ten miles wide, lay between them and the river wandering deep in dim thickets of reed and rush. Just to the West of the southernmost slope there was a great ring, where the turf had been torn and beaten by many trampling feet. From it the orc-trail ran out again, turning north along the dry skirts of the hills. Aragorn halted and examined the tracks closely.
'They rested here a while,' he said, 'but even the outward trail is already old. I fear that your heart spoke truly, Legolas: it is thrice twelve hours, I guess, since the Orcs stood where we now stand. If they held to their pace, then at sundown yesterday they would reach the borders of Fangorn.'
'I can see nothing away north or west but grass dwindling into mist,' said Gimli. 'Could we see the forest, if we climbed the hills?'
'It is still far away,' said Aragorn. 'If I remember rightly, these downs run eight leagues or more to the north, and then north-west to the issuing of the Entwash there lies still a wide land. another fifteen leagues it may be.'
'Well, let us go on,' said Gimli. 'My legs must forget the miles. They would be more willing, if my heart were less heavy.'
The sun was sinking when at last they drew near to the end of the line of downs. For many hours they had marched without rest. They were going slowly now, and Gimli's back was bent. Stone-hard are the Dwarves in labour or journey, but this endless chase began to tell on him, as all hope failed in his heart. Aragorn walked behind him, grim and silent, stooping now and again to scan some print or mark upon the ground. Only Legolas still stepped as lightly as ever, his feet hardly seeming to press the grass. leaving no footprints as he passed; but in the waybread of the Elves he found all the sustenance that he needed, and he could sleep, if sleep it could be called by Men, resting his mind in the strange paths of elvish dreams, even as he walked open-eyed in the light of this world.
'Let us go up on to this green hill!' he said. Wearily they followed him, climbing the long slope, until they came out upon the top. It was a round hill smooth and bare, standing by itself, the most northerly of the downs.
The sun sank and the shadows of evening fell like a curtain. They were alone in a grey formless world without mark or measure. Only far away north-west there was a deeper darkness against the dying light: the Mountains of Mist and the forest at their feet.
'Nothing can we see to guide us here,' said Gimli. 'Well, now we must halt again and wear the night away. It is growing cold!'
'The wind is north from the snows,' said Aragorn.
'And ere morning it will be in the East,' said Legolas. 'But rest if you must. Yet do not cast all hope away. Tomorrow is unknown. Rede oft is found at the rising of the Sun.'
Of all things, the idea of "long slow defeat" is one that I cannot imagine inspiring this tome. Such an idea is not presented here, and certainly doesn't animate the characters or provide impetus to their actions.
I more would see over-coming in a fight against long odds as animating these characters. Not accepting defeat, or considering it anything other than completely bitter.
Here is another great pic from our chapter... The Rohirrim confronting the three... Eeek!
Many more where that came from. A whole raft of new pics were posted at TORN today. They were so overloaded that the site slowed to a snail's pace, but I am going to risk posting one on the gamble that it has improved since then:
There are many TTT shots, and many many shots that are from the Director's cut of FoTR that comes out in November. Good stuff!
Tolkien sends them off in pursuit so dramatically and then ends it in a very surprising way, a way you'd never think of at the outset. This leads me to think that this entire section is about character development (as someone noted earlier) -- and about introducing us intimately to another part of M-E.
"The second part is called The Two Towers since the events recounted in it are dominated by Orthanc, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of Minas Morgul, that guards the secret entrance to Mordor...."
Did Tolkien write that note, or did some nameless editor?
That's in my copy of FOTR copyright 1965, so Tolkien definately knew it was there.
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