Posted on 04/06/2024 12:49:48 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
Battery electric vehicles like Teslas are fast, sleek, jewelrylike cars that capture the imagination. Hybrid cars, at least in the U.S., often bring to mind the Toyota Prius, long seen as a dawdling, egg-shaped vehicle for shuttling back and forth to Trader Joe's.
But quietly amid all the BEV hype, automakers' hybrid fleets took broad strides forward. Car buyers flinched at the challenges of EV ownership. And sales of hybrid cars, led by Toyota Motor (TM) and Honda Motor (HMC), ramped up to outpace those of the flashier electric vehicles.
Now carmakers are in overdrive to respond as analysts take a red pen to their BEV forecasts.
The revision in consumer preferences, and the expense of making and selling battery electric vehicles, has forced General Motors (GM) and Ford Motor (F) into an abrupt shift. Both legacy automakers are interrupting their highly publicized and expensive transitions to battery EVs to reemphasize hybrid cars.
Tesla (TSLA), struggling against rising strength of EV competitors in China led by BYD (BYDDF), risks losing market share as hybrids surge. More precarious startups including Rivian (RIVN) and Lucid (LCID), which sell electric vehicles in low volumes and have no hybrid models to ride out the storm, face a darker outlook. And the change could signal the death knell for the weakest of the EV players, most notably Fisker (FSR).
The most recent models of hybrid cars strengthen the technology's image. They offer eye-popping performance and mileage claims. In other words, they bust the old hybrid image of being underpowered and overpriced.
“ You have vehicles with great fuel economy, as hybrids have always had, but the latest hybrids are also just better vehicles," said Keith Barry, an editor at Consumer Reports' Auto Test Center in Colchester, Conn.
(Excerpt) Read more at investors.com ...
They’re still no “greener” than ICE vehicles because of the redundant overhead. You’re still paying for the design and manufacture and and maintenance for two propulsion systems when on got the job done.
Toyota the largest automaker in the world is only selling its flagship Camry as a hybrid from this point forward 2025 model. Every other Toyota model will follow shortly.
Why? because it’s mechanically.cheaper to have two electric machies a simple epicyclic single gear between them and two sets of silicon inverter/rectifiers vs ten plus gears, fluids, torque converters all that 20th century stuff. With a single platform Toyota can cover all the various cases of use.
There is no less than five means of powering a electric drivetrain. The obvious is to link a very efficient ICE to the input of one of the electric machines. You run it at peak efficiency when every you can and let the motors handle the peaks and valleys of the drive cycle. This more than doubles city mpg and 30% more on the hwy. You only need a tiny battery pack 1.5kWh or so. It only takes 600watt hours to slow a Camry sized car from 60 to zero using electric motors instead of throwing away that energy as heat and brake dust.
Mode two is upsize the battery to 15kWh or so this allows for using wall electricity for the first 60 miles of use. Since 75% of Americans live in high density cities the avg trip distance per the DOT is 30 miles or less accounting for 94% of all American drives. Electricity is five to ten times cheaper per mile vs gasoline.
Mode three on the same platform is to use a large 60kWh pack and no other power source on board at all. This gives a 240 mile range but opens up fast DC charging since you can’t push a pack much past 5C charge rates. 60*5 is 300kw the current V4 fast DC standard. You can go from 10% to 80% in 8.4 min at 300kw that puts 170 miles in the pack. Given that most people as in 75% only drive 40 miles or less per day this ability is meaningless what matters is that they would need to fully charge once a week to 100% and it would take 30 minutes. Uber drivers and cabs would use the 8 min charge at most 2 times a day I have never meet an uber driver who drive more than 500 miles in a day.
Mode four is investing for the 15kWh or the 60kWh power train you can use a fuel cell to power the base load and use the pack for peaks and valleys. Ceramic platinum free fuel cells are just now becoming economical. You can feed them hydrogen gas, or reform methane,ethanol,ammonia or any of the light hydrocarbons into H2 and CO2.
Mode five is a personal favorite. You can power the 15kWh/60kWh version with a small high speed turbine driving a tiny 400hz generator a 50kw turbine run at its peak efficiency point is 40% nearly what a fuel.cell puts out but turbines will burn anything liquid or gas you throw at them with virtually no emissions. A 50kw turbine would be the size of a automotive turbo charger and a 400hz generator would be the size of a large coffee can. The 777 has a 177kva generator that is the size of a watermelon and that includes the geartrain.
This is why Toyota is going electric drive trains it became inevitable once electronics could cheaply handle 800+v and 1000+ amps silicon carbide diodes make mechanical transmissions obsolete.
I had a 2023 Prius for 12 weeks on a short term lease. I lease cars on the regular all over the planet as a geologist. It was as fast as the Corolla ICE it replaced. It also was returning 75mpg over ten mile trips on grid lock traffic where an ICE would be lucky to return 15mpg seen both in similar sized cars in L.A. traffic. The highest I saw was 82mpg over a 16 mile trip.
The car shows you a per trip since engine start, per tank, or up too five user defined intervals the MPG,avg speed,avg moving speed, time stopped, distance.
At 80mph it was avg 58mpg over a 440 mile trip including climbing up over the mtns on the way to Vegas.
So I would say your points are conjecture not facts when was the last time you personally drove a modern as in newer than 2020 hybrid? Toyota is kicking butts and taking names with hybrid tech.
The power generation market should also go hybrid and be ready to handle at least 48 hours of no wind, hydro, or solar power generation. It’s absurd the ideas being implemented that don’t account for the risks of renewable power generation sources. It’s as if they really have some other agenda in mind besides the environment.
I drive a 2022 venza.
Does that count?
It appears your assumed too much.
I’m for both, especially PHEV. But hailing slowish EV sales is a little goofy since the dominant maker had a major production shutdown and couldn’t come close to keeping up with demand. The Model Y has so far this year sold 109,000 cars. Model 3 is the 2nd best selling US-made car and has hold 42,000. The Model Y has outsold the NEXT best selling US-made car by almost 3 to 1.
The idiots in the Detroit haven’t figured out that Americans don’t want EV minivans; they want EM cars so that they don’t need to buy minivans. Those battery packs are expensive, but buying a minivan when you only need a car but CAFE standards won’t let Detroit sell you a roomy car is a lot more expensive.
The 2022 venza has the new gen three power split like the Camry,Prius and Corolla. It should have at least 170hp that’s plenty for a small SUV. You also should have the new Lion cells not the NiMH cells the former nickel cells last into the 200k miles range Lion cells have twice the cycle life of the older cells I would be surprised if you ever need to replace them do you keep cars into 300K+ miles? I have never owners a vehicle with more than 150k and those are commuter cars which get replaced at 5 years are or 150k whichever comes first.
There are at least two companies they rebuild Toyota hybrid packs the older Prius/Corolla packs can be had for $1200 and good for unlimited more miles if you buy the $700 extended warranty on them. Going from 28mpg to 50+ over 100,000 miles at $3+ per gallon is 22mpg better or 4500+ gallons saved at $3 per gallon that $13,000+ in fuel savings a $1900 pack is nothing compared to the reduced fuel costs laugh all the way to the bank my friend.
170hp is way to weak for me.
What? I had a 2000 Ford Explorer sport V6 with 160hp it’s nickname was the race exploder it was quick as all get out it’s curb weight was 3680lbs your hybrid can’t weight more than 3900lbs and has the advantages of maximum torque at zero rpm due to the electrics. The F150 from that same era had a six that was also 160hp and well over 4500lbs.
If you want a sports car buy one my Model 3 has 425hp to and 100% torque from a standstill it will do 0 to 60 in under 5 seconds it’s much faster than my turbo S60 I let my wife race me in it down the tollway the other day to see the difference.
The Tesla was walking away at up too the electronic limited 160mph as hard as it was at 100. I have the stones to pull to 160 I took my SAAB over 180 on a number of times radar verified. The SAAB had 450 to the wheels with a crate motor 70mm Garrett boost controller and 7:1 pistons everything was forged from the piston down. The Model 3 would eat the SAAB alive until 160 no comparison.
Double the weight? I have a 2019 Ford Fusion Hybrid and it is not double the weight of the non-hybrid.
Higher insurance for home and car? Not the case with my hybrid.
I think hybrids mostly remove much of the risk of a lithium battery, because you can provide space between the batteries and they should pay for themselves over the life of the car, because of the gas you don’t buy.
At the police station I work at, some of the older officers don’t like hybrids because they are concerned about the possibility of the car stalling from a parked position if they have to go after somebody.
How about financial risk?
Have you seen the replacement cost for a battery?
Our cars are tools, not joyrides.
We maintain them well and drive our cars til they drop.
A hybrid makes no sense for us for that reason.
An ICE vehicle makes much more financial sense.
A full EV does not make financial sense to me either. However a hybrid battery replacement costs is much more modest than replacing a full EV.
You spend about $3,000 on gas each year, so replacing a hybrid battery and not having to fill up over the course of a year is basically neutral, in terms of cost.
COSTS ASSOCIATED WITH HYBRID BATTERY REPLACEMENT
Different makes and models use different hybrid batteries, and it varies depending if the vehicle is a mild hybrid, full hybrid, or plug-in hybrid. The battery pack itself is the majority of the cost with variations ranging from around $1,000 to $6,000, although most batteries for common models tend to be under $3,000.
https://www.autozone.com/diy/battery/hybrid-battery-replacement-cost
We don’t spend anything like that on gas.
And both our ICE cars are very fuel efficient.
Also, over the years, because of the ambulance situation in my neck of the woods, I’ve had to run a number of friends and family to various ERs.
Just another reason I will never own a vehicle I have to charge to run.
You and I are in agreement with full EV’s. I view them as a waste of time and money. They are nothing but a money sink.
However, I view hybrids as an advance. We are nearing the theoretical potential of ICE vehicles, based on the numbers and the theoretical performance we can get from them. Without a revolution in reducing bodyweight, we are probably nearing the end of what can be done.
The average American spends about $2,000/year on gas, so for him a hybrid battery would be useful to him. You must not do much driving if you aren’t spending that.
Not as much driving as we used to do.
We’d do even less if owned a hybrid or an EV.
I don’t have a problem with the tech.
I have a problem with Deep State forcing it on people.
If we restore the republic, then I’m caveat emptor on EVs and hybrids.
Won’t ever own one, but chacun à son goût..
BTW, we get better than listed mileage on all our ICE vehicles.
A lot of folks who complain about poor mileage don’t maintain their vehicles well and/or drive like loonies.
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