Posted on 11/14/2017 2:24:54 PM PST by nickcarraway
And I do it using Scripture; not what I think it means or what some OTHER Prot has written about it.
I'm of the camp of, "... turn the lion loose and let him defend himself..."
It’s already there. If you can lose your salvation, you have to do something to keep it. Works. Q. E. D.
Tell me how yuou read it so that it means something opposite to what Jesus said as written in the inspired Greek of John 6:47
...Help My Unbelief...Mark 9:24
Has nothing to do with salvation in that passage. No help for your thesis there.
READ THE BOOK!
It's not works; but FAITH.
(Now we'll get the folks that claim that 'faith' is a 'work'!)
You're right - about something that wasn't even brought up.
But BELIEF is definitely 'in that passage.'
Everlasting existence bequeathed to the undeserving but continuously faith-exercising confessing soul is without end, no matter what.
On the other hand, if one says that he believes, but continues to lead a carnal life-style without change, then it is he that is the liar, not the Jesus of the Bible.
And the one insisting that you can lose your salvation--and with it eternal life with God--s the perpetrator of a false gospel that cannot utterly remove the guilt of one's sin.
Correct. He that exercises a saving faith possesses the irreversible gift of God, and cannot lose his salvation.
If one has to do something more to keep the gift than just to gratefully accept it, that would necessarily be a works-based "salvation" which would be no salvation at all. And it would be another gospel about another christ.
Read the Book. 2 Cor. 11:3-4
So what? Did Jesus increase the belief of the boy's father so that he, and not Jesus, could heal the boy's sickness by exorcising the devilish spirit possesing him?
I hear ya...
1 Corinthians 9:27
No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
MAybe...
Matthew 13:58
And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
Mark 6:5
He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them.
So...
bottom line:
Are we saved by faith; and kept by it?
or are we...
Saved by Faith; Kept by Works?
Before someone says Undistributed Middle; I’ll lay out the other two possibilities (that NO one seems to claim):
Are we saved by Works; and kept by them?
or are we...
Saved by Works; Kept by Faith?
Mid-week fellowship supper snd Bible reading, After tht coffee. Home about 10 or 11 EST.
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning...because ...
1. Are you 'born of GOD'?
2. If so; have you sinned since that occurred?
3. Do you understand the words that are one chapter and eight verses back in that letter?
Yes, I am certainly convinced of spiritual rebirth and eternal security in it.
2. If so; have you sinned since that occurred?
Of course, but not as a habitual life-style, and agreed with the Holy Spirit when He brought it to my attention. 1 Jn. 1:8-10 (AV):
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins,
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
3. Do you understand the words that are one chapter and eight verses back in that letter?
Yes, I do; but if your source for the meaning is the NIV, you will be misguided, for it does not precisely translate the Greek, especially in the more critical verses I John 2:3-6. If you do not accept a more accurate translation, you will not grasp them either.
Here is an excerpt that illustrates the significance of understanding the Greek present tense, from Don Martin's Bible Truths web site, Greek Lesson Five: Greek Lesson Five (click here):
"There is much information conveyed in the present tense of the Greek verb. Simply stated, the
present tense of Greek verbs denotes continuous action or action in progress. There are many
examples of the present tense. We read, "And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord,
save us, we perish" (Matt. 8: 25). The verb translated "perish" is apollumeqa (a-pol-lú-me-tha). The
grammatical information on this verb is: First person, plural, present tense, indicative mood, and
passive voice. I will explain how you can verify this information in Lesson Eight. Based on the
present tense status of the verb, the disciples are literally saying "We are presently in the
process of perishing." Which is fuller and replete with emotion, "we perish" or "we are presently in
the process of perishing?" When you appreciate the present tense, can not you just see the ship
being covered with waves and the impending and eminent loss of lives and hear their plaintive cry
for help (Matt. 8: 23-27).
I John 3: 6 has caused many difficulty and grief. The verse reads, "Whosoever abideth in him
sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." John said in I John 1: 8 that
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Is John
contradicting himself and are we in a state of hopelessness? The answer lies in the verb tense of
"whosoever sinneth." The verb "sinneth" is amartanwn (ha-mar-tá-non). The verb used by John is
present tense. Hence, John is saying one cannot live in sin and know God (cp. Isa. 59: 1, 2). While
the Amplified Translation has some failures, it is excellent on verb tense. The Amplified renders I
John 3: 6 thus, "No one who abides in Him - who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience
to Him…, habitually commits (practices) sin. No one who habitually sins has either seen or known
Him…." In I John 1, a single act of sin is being contemplated, in I John 3, the practice of sin is
being considered. (click on "Sin" to read more about sin. . . .
The Holy Spirit taught and enhanced many truths by carefully using verb tense and the Koiné has
preserved these truths for us."
My brother and FRiend, were you to submit yourself to working through the eight lessons of Greek on Martin's web site, I know that you will greatly benefit yourself and others by your greater knowledge of the issues at stake in wielding the Word of God as contained in the New testament for your arguments. Those lessons will require only a few hours of your time. The only basic requirement for approved completion is the memorization of the 23 characters of the Greek alphabet, which I had to accomplish years ago as a pledge of my college fraternity. That's not hard.
========
Another author, Robert Martin (whom I have previously recommended to you), in his volume "Accuracy Of Translation" says in his summary of the analysis of the NIV on page 70:
"While dynamic translations may have value, they should not be used as our primary study Bibles or
as the standards from which we derive our personal or corporate theology and practice. It is also
probably unwise to use them as pulpit Bibles or as pew Bibles, because in doing so they are invested
with the aura of the approval of the church.
The NIV is not worthy of becoming the standard version of the English-speaking world. Its accuracy is suspect in too many ways. . . .
The Bible is the touchstone of our faith and practice. We cannot afford to be careless and
uninformed in these matters."
Please let me suggest that you take this seriously, particularly if your local church leadership has let you down by using the NIV in its regular services. This version is not the preferred kind for sincere Bible students.
Already this is not an adequate translation to come to grips with the sense of this verse.
The Greek says:
"No one who Whosoever is born of God will does not habitually commit sin, because God's seed(His Word) remains in them(disagrees with the verb conjugation number) him(the believer), and he(the believer) is not able to persistently sin, because he(the believer) stands(for once and all) born from out of God."
AHhhh...
...some are more 'critical' than others.
And it is SO obvious; too!
| 1 John 2:3-6 KJV 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. |
1 John 2:3-6 NIV 3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. |
So; who gets to define what a HABIT is?
Can I sin once a year and get away with it?
How about once a month? Once a week?
Only every other day?
Matthew 18:21-22 (KJV)
21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
"No one who Whosoever is born of God will does not habitually commit sin, because
I don't see any HABITUAL in the Greek.
| 9 3956 [e] 9 Pas 9 Πᾶς 9 Anyone 9 Adj-NMS |
3588 [e] ho ὁ - Art-NMS |
1080 [e] gegennēmenos γεγεννημένος having been born V-RPM/P-NMS |
1537 [e] ek ἐκ of Prep |
3588 [e] tou τοῦ - Art-GMS |
2316 [e] Theou Θεοῦ , God N-GMS |
266 [e] hamartian ἁμαρτίαν sin N-AFS |
3756 [e] ou οὐ not Adv |
4160 [e] poiei ποιεῖ , practices V-PIA-3S |
3754 [e] hoti ὅτι because Conj |
4690 [e] sperma σπέρμα seed N-NNS |
846 [e] autou αὐτοῦ of him PPro-GM3S |
1722 [e] en ἐν in Prep |
846 [e] autō αὐτῷ him PPro-DM3S |
3306 [e] menei μένει , abides V-PIA-3S |
2532 [e] kai καὶ and Conj |
3756 [e] ou οὐ not Adv |
1410 [e] dynatai δύναται he is able V-PIM/P-3S |
264 [e] hamartanein ἁμαρτάνειν , to continue sinning V-PNA |
3754 [e] hoti ὅτι because Conj |
1537 [e] ek ἐκ of Prep |
3588 [e] tou τοῦ - Art-GMS |
2316 [e] Theou Θεοῦ God N-GMS |
1080 [e] gegennētai γεγέννηται . he has been born V-RIM/P-3S |
|
1 John 3:9 New American Standard Bible (NASB) 9 No one who is [a]born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is [b]born of God. Strong's Concordance
poieó: to make, do Original Word: ποιέωPart of Speech: Verb Transliteration: poieó Phonetic Spelling: (poy-eh'-o) Short Definition: I do, make Definition: (a) I make, manufacture, construct, (b) I do, act, cause. NAS Exhaustive Concordance Word Origina prim. word Definition to make, do NASB Translation accomplished (1), act (4), acted (3), acting (1), acts (2), appointed (3), away* (1), bear (5), bearing (1), bears (3), become (1), bore (1), bring (1), bring...to pass (1), bring about (2), bringing (1), brings forth (1), call (1), carried (1), carries (1), carry (1), cause (3), causes (2), causing (1), commit (2), commits (2), committed (4), composed (1), consider (1), created things (1), dealt (1), did (33), did...do (2), do (170), does (16), does...do (1), doing (38), done (43), establishing (1), execute (4), exercises (1), expose* (1), formed (1), formed a conspiracy (1), forms (1), gave (4), give (4), gives (1), giving (1), have (2), have kept (1), having (1), held (1), indulging (1), keep (3), keeps (1), kept (1), made (38), make (47), makes (7), making (9), observe (2), offer (1), offering (1), perform (4), performed (8), performing (7), performs (1), practice (5), practices (11), practicing (1), present (1), proceeding (1), produce (3), produced (1), produces (2), producing (1), provide (1), put (1), satisfy* (1), setting (1), show (2), showed (1), shown (1), spend (1), spent (4), took (1), treat (6), treated (1), weaker (1), worked (1), working (1). About the NASB. The New American Standard Bible (NASB) translation was created by The Lockman Foundation. It is especially faithful to the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts and uses a word-for-word instead of a thought-for-thought translation method. nasb.literalword.com/about/translation/
|
But I'll just bet that you are as THANKFUL as I that we DO have so many words to study and ponder over!
I'm sitting here, sniffing the aroma wafting up from the kitchen; with my left calf getting cooked by my under desk heater, while my back is not getting nearly enough heat to be comfortable.
Oh well, the thermostat will kick in to the morning program soon and the whole house will warm to greet family, friends and guests as we celebrate; once again; our Nation and it's many blessings.
May you and yours have a rewarding experience as well. (But what shall we do about the football games?? ;^)
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