Posted on 08/17/2017 4:57:34 PM PDT by Bull Snipe
The Captain of the Ship qualifies the OODs on his ship.
Somebody dropped their sextant in the shower.
Here’s a thread of interest. Post #29 has a link to a good article with some really interesting pictures.
Yup. His commander wanted him tried. Daddy got him he Navy Cross instead.
"The impact caused the Fitzgerald to tilt 14 degrees to the left before settling into a 7-degree starboard list, and the flooding weighted the ship deeper to the right, according to the report."
That's a total roll of 21 degrees!. Rlmorel's conjecture of the Fitz riding up on the lower bow projection of the Crystal, and being rolled over to port has been validated.
FWIW, I really wish they would post photos of the underwater damage on the Fitzgerald... (both extent & location...)
BTW, I'm still amazed that the CO survived! His quarters were opened up like a tin can with a M-80 inside...
Let me help you.
Halsey ran into TWO typhoons and abandoned his primary orders at Leyte Gulf to go after a fleet sent to distract him. Leyte could have been a total disaster except for the unbelievable bravery of Kincaid and his sailors. Halsey is responsible for the death of every sailor on the USS Gambier Bay.
Should have been relieved at the least.
I’m well aware. The CO just relieved had only been in the position for a short time, so the previous CO probably signed off on the qual. Unfortunately, the trend I saw was to qualify OODs but never allow some to stand the watch, while others weren’t allowed to stand watch at night. Didn’t want to hurt any feelings or generate any complaints.
That’s right. I was simplifying the events. But thanks.
Don’t really know what it is like these days, have been out of the Navy since 94. What I do recall is that once the old man qualified you, there was always a spot on the watchbill with your name in it.
I cannot visualize any way this could happen at an alert, experienced watch.
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you have NAILED the whole Fitzgerald story.
The Fitz Bridge was either unconscious, held at gunpoint, or not present on the bridge, or unable to control the ship due to some kind of an electronic attack that the Navy will NEVER tell us about. Remember the Russkies just disabled an American Destroyer in the Black Sea.
tend to favor the occams razor approach to the collision. The Fitzgerald bridge and combat watchstanders simply screwed up. Not sure how that happened, but I think they will bear the ultimate responsibility for the deaths of 7 sailors and the millions of dollars of damage to the ship.
This could result in courts martial level punishment for some of those officers. I do not have any problem with that.
tend to favor the occams razor approach to the collision. The Fitzgerald bridge and combat watchstanders simply screwed up. Not sure how that happened, but I think they will bear the ultimate responsibility for the deaths of 7 sailors and the millions of dollars of damage to the ship.
This could result in courts martial level punishment for some of those officers. I do not have any problem with that.
....................normally, I would agree with you on Occams.
But, having been on a destroyer bridge several hundred hours I can tell you that “simple” screwing up” is about as possible in this situation as taking tea on the surface of the sun! The Navy has had 250 odd years to perfect “bridge watches”.
So, respectfully, I don’t think Occams applies in this situation. Something out of left field happened.
Our record of “perfect” bridge watches is commendable. But the bridge has screwed it up before. USS Belknap v USS Kennedy, and USS Frank Evans v HMAS Melbourne come to mind. Crystal was not a carrier, but a large container ship doing its thing. IMO the watch lost the bubble in a very heavily traveled body of water at night. That is speculation on my part, based on several hundreds of hours of bridge watch on destroyers, oiler, cruisers and gators. We will have to wait for the investigation to be completed to see what went wrong that night.
Lot of things “coming out of left field’ lately...USS Porter (DDG-78) hit in almost the same spot as the Fitz (Aug. 2012, Straight of Hormuz).
http://gcaptain.com/intense-bridge-conversation-porter/
Despite the problems noted on the Belknap that night, the trial of Captain Shafer also resulted in “disposition tantamount to acquittal on all charges and specifications.” It is highly likely that the families of the victims were quite unhappy that no one was held accountable for this disastrous event.
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A couple points re both our posts. #1, The “Captain” of the Belknap was “totally” awake and involved in the “mistakes” leading up to that collision. The Fitz’s Captain was asleep and instantly incapacitated ergo completely out of the loop. So, no mystery on the Belknap about WHAT happened. Fitz is a big mystery, at least to the American taxpayer.
#2, The Captain of the Belknap received no punishment and I predict the same will happen re the Fitz tragedy. This is the way the Navy “covers up” it’s own weaknesses and culpability. Basically, the Navy’s lawyers, acting on orders from on high, get in a room with the Captain’s lawyers and say, in effect, “ok, we will stop right here and not pursue ANY punishment as long as your client signs this 100 page long Confidentiality Agreement” The Captain’s lawyers FORCE their client to take it!
I know, I won a judgment of millions but was forced to take a smaller number and the main thing the other side wanted was to have me sign their 100 page Confidentiality Agreement. They did not want me writing any news articles, or going on TV, or writing any books or whatever.
This Fitz investigation will take a year or two to let things calm down and then the Captain will resign his commission and that will be that and we will never know what really happened, officially.
True. But the officer of the deck in the Belknap case was convicted at a courts martial. Received no punishment and left the service. The salient point is that the bridge watch and combat bear the responsibility for the Fitzgerald collision, in my opinion anyway. Since nothing has been said publically about them, that means the Navy is still investigating their actions leading up to the collision. What actions they took, or did not take, will be come public, just like the bridge actions on the Belknap became public, after the investigation is completed and reviewed.
..........I THINK we are on the same side of the line of scrimmage here but I’m not sure.
First, let me say this. The NAVY is a HUGE organization and S___ is going to happen no matter what.
That said, it doesn’t excuse any of us to care about what the hell happened.
“Naval Integrity” is only as good as the organization that controls it...........the Federal Government. Let’s please just stipulate that their “integrity” in this first quarter of the 21st century is pretty sad.
Accordingly, I’m wondering if something “EXTRAORDINARY” went on on that Bridge that night. I’m “WONDERING” because of my 7 years experience in the Navy of which some was standing on a US NAVY destroyer bridge under way.
Now, maybe I was just lucky and had good training and (it was nearly 50 years ago) good officers but in any event my bridge time was that all of us were just at all times and ABSOLUTELY paying 101% attention and there is no way this could have happened without us all being asleep or someone holding a machine gun on us or the ship just went dead and became uncontrollable. If the latter happened, and I am not saying it did, but IF it did, the “Federal Government” would hide that from us mere “citizens”.
Really don’t think there were a lot of outside causes, outside of darkness. Most collisions between Naval vessels and other ships have been under circumstances where the ship had power available, a fully manned bridge and CIC.
Frank Evens, Belknap, Eisenhower, Porter and now Fitzgerald.
Don’t know about any of several submarine v surface ship collisions, am not considering some our “bumping” run ins with the Soviets during the Cold War. But on the surface ship to ship collisions, the performance of the Bridge/CIC was the major factor in the collision. I do not have any doubts that is what will be the outcome of the Fitzgerald investigation. Now having said that, What did the Japanese investigation into the Crystals actions find. I haven’t heard. Did Crystal take all actions they could to avoid a collision, don’t know. Hopefully the Japanese will be willing to share their investigation with our Navy. That may answer some of many questions about this event.
.........well, now we have the USS McCain in a collision in the Singapore area.............the report I read is that they are looking for survivors...........
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