Lot 406: Colt U.S. Contract Artillery SAA Un-Numbered Replacement Frame (Gun Porn)

Auction Zip ^ | December 2, 2016 | Rock Island Arsenal auction list

[Swordmaker]

This is a current thread at Shotgun World. A farmer in the UK posted about an engraved Browning A-5 he bought some years back. It turns out it is the gun Felix Funken (one of FN’s most famous engravers) did for the 1930 World’s Fair in Liege Belgium.

The sad thing about that shotgun is that someone cleaned it. . . and maybe over cleaned it. The engraving is blurry now because it looks as if it has been buffed or wire wheeled by someone who had no clue what to do when they took the finish off. Edges that should be crisp are curved off. . . what a crying shame! AAAARRRGGGHHHH!

Many years ago, a fellow came into my gun shop with a cased Winchester HighWall three barrel set he'd just inherited from his grandfather. He wanted it re-blued. He told me it some light spots of a little rust and he'd saved some money by taking off the bluing for us on two of the barrels. He opened the case to show me what he meant on the last barrel he had not yet done. . . That barrel had 98% original bright blue left with a tiny, tiny bit of red rust that would have come off with some tender care and oil. The other two barrels were now WHITE and scratched beyond belief, because he'd used an emory buffing wheel on them. All the markings on them had been buffed out. He'd taken a set worth approxmately $15,000 and made it worth $1500 (the value of one least rare caliber Highwall). ARRRGGGGHHH!

My "WORST amateur with a gun mod story" of all time was the kid who had just graduated from high school and was trying to raise money for college tuition. He stopped in to ask if we bought curios. I asked what he had.

He said he'd inherited a rifle from his Uncle and had made it into a floor lamp in his high school craft shop and he thought some gun guy might like to buy it for his gun room. I asked what kind of rifle was it was. He said he wasn't any too sure, but it was "like one of those old ones like you saw in the western movies. . . you know, with a lever." He said his Mom didn't like it and he might as well sell it for college money. I told him to bring it in and I would look at it and tell if I could offer him anything on it.

The next day he and his Mom came in and hauled this gun/lamp out of the back seat of their car and brought it in. I could see BEAUTIFUL BURL WALNUT pistol grip stock with checkering on what appeared to be a pristine 1873 Winchester with octagon barrel. Oh, my god. . . He set it up. . . and could see it was ruined as a gun. It had, wonderful color case hardening, probably 95% original bluing left. . . gorgeous gun. . . and he had tapped the end of the octagon barrel to insert the threaded brass of an electrical fitting for a candelabra three lamp light and a harp for a standard floor lamp. The whole thing was screwed through the stock to a somewhat crudely made and finished base of turned walnut with a brass column. The cord was threaded down the barrel and came out through the top of the flat of the chamber where he had drilled a hole.

I was already sick at the desecration of a super fine special order 1873 Winchester rifle as I picked the lamp/gun up and sat it on the counter so I could look at it better and I got even more sick to my stomach when I saw what was engraved on the top of the barrel just in from of the breech. You could clearly see on the top of the barrel the words, in flowing script, "One of (. . .) Thousand", interrupted with a hole right through the second "one" where that damned electrical cord came through!!!

I had to calm myself down before I could say anything.

"I don't know how to tell you this," I said, "Look, I'm going to be honest with both of you. I could offer you $1000 for this lamp. . ."

The kid said "WOW!"

"That's great!" the Mom said.

"Hold on!" I went on. "I said I could. I am going to advise you not to take it!"

"What?!" said the kid.

"Why?" asked an obviously shocked Mom.

"First of all, I'm not sure I want this in my shop. It will make a lot of gun people very angry and upset. Secondly, I am I certain I can place a fair price on it for you or really evaluate what it's worth in this condition. Thirdly, I could take it and try to sell it as is. . . but that's when people would be upset and angry. I won't do that. Frankly, I am upset and angry right now that your High School Shop teacher let you do this to this gun without checking before you did it. In fact, kid, I am VERY, very angry. "

"Why?" the Mom asked. "It's just a gun that my son made into a lamp some gun nut might like. I don't like it but he thinks it's cool and I can appreciate how you gun people don't like . . . "

"Ma'am," I said. "That's not what this is. That Shop teacher let your son take this gun he inherited— a gun which was a very rare and extremely valuable antique collector's firearm— and ruin it without checking what it was or what it was worth. He should never have allowed it. That teacher failed your son and you. Had he not let your son turn it into a lamp, and essentially destroy most of its collector's value, it would possibly have been worth as much as $25,000 to $30,000, maybe more! It could have paid for the bulk of your son's college education."

"Oh, no!" Mom's eyes got big and she looked sick.

The kid looked thunderstruck. "My uncle said he was going to leave me something to pay for my college, but then he just left me this gun. . . "

Mom was tearing up. "What's it worth now?"

"I will give you the $1000 I mentioned, right now, if you want it, but I doubt I could get $2000 for it retail." I explained. "I won't try to sell it that way."

I went on to explain: "I will try to have it restored as closely as possible back to original, but it will never get back its original, untouched value. A good antique gun restorer can seal up the drilled holes, shorten the barrel, remount the front sight, refinish just the damaged areas to match using the original finish formulas, recut the chamber, re-engrave the "one" where it was drilled out. . . but we have to document those repairs were done, and note that it would be unwise to ever shoot it again, not that I ever recommend shooting such a valuable gun. THEN it may sell at auction with everything being disclosed, for, maybe, $12,500 to $15,000. . . perhaps, if lucky a bit more, but not much more. It won't be original any more, and collectors put a lot of value on original condition."

"Oh."

"Now, that's what I would do if I bought this 'lamp' from you. I'd send it to the best restoration guy in the country and pay him to do it. Buy as I said, I'm advising you to not accept my $1000 offer. I suggest that, if you have some extra money, YOU do it. You've made enough mistakes with this gun already, don't make another one."

"How much do you think it would cost to do that?

"To do it right?" I said. "My guesstimate is probably between $2,000 and $3,000, maybe a bit more, but not too much more. The guy I am thinking about is up front and will document everything from start to finish with photos at every step, for any potential buyer. That will help increase the auction price later to prove that only the minimal repairs necessary for restoration were done and most of the gun is really still close to original as possible."

They thanked me and took their lamp home with them. . . a week later they called to ask for the restoration gunsmith's name (I cannot recall it now. . . he's long dead) and about a year later the rifle was sold at auction and brought (IIRC) something around $16,500 plus buyers premium.

[Disambiguator]

I have a late 1940s vintage Remington .22 rifle that does not have a serial number. It wasn’t required until after the Gun Control Act of 1968 was passed.

[smokingfrog]

I believe it was nicknamed 45 Long Colt only to differentiate it from the .45 Schofield, which was extensively used by the Army.

[Swordmaker]

There is no such cartridge designated ".45 Long Colt". Never has been and never will be. Nor is there a .45 Short Colt, .45 Extra Long Colt or .45 Extremely Long Colt.

That's very strange, because I have a 1880s period box of old, old ammo around here labelled .45 Long Colt. Strangely it was manufactured by. . . wait for it. . . Colt.

Left .45 Long Colt v. .45 S&W Schofield

The .45 Long Colt designation came about when the US Army adopted the 1873 .45 Colt . . . at the same time they were also purchasing the 1870 Smith and Wesson break top .45 S&W Schofield which used a shorter .45 round. These rounds could be easily be confused so the ordnance officers started specifically ordering the .45 LONG Colt to better differentiate it from the shorter .45 Smith and Wesson round which WOULD chamber in the Colt SAA. The reverse would not occur. The chambering and firing of the S&W rounds in the Colts caused jams and mis-fires as the .45 S&W dimensions were also smaller in diameter and had a tendency to expand too much.

Later, after Colt introduced the 1911 Auto, the confusion between to two Colt cartridges, one the .45 ACP, and the .45 Colt, still resulted in problems, so people started asking for either the .45 LONG Colt indicating the longer .45 Colt, and often even asking for the .45 SHORT ammo. . . meaning the .45 ACP. . . because people were confused which they needed. This was further confused with the introduction of the Colt (Model 1917) and Smith & Wesson (Model 25-2) revolvers that were capable of shooting BOTH cartridges, using a moon clip to load the .45 ACP into the cylinders that would chamber the 45 Colt (or the .45 LONG Colt cartridge.

As mentioned in Wikipedia:

"It is sometimes referred to as .45 Long Colt or .45LC, to differentiate it from the shorter .45 S&W Schofield, as both were used by the Army at the same period of time prior to the adoption of the M1887 Govt.[1]"

The US Army armorers designated the cartridges in their orders as .45 Long Colt because the .45 S&W Schofield would chamber in the Colts but COULD occasionally over pressure the Colts do to fouling and mistiming issues if used in the Colts. . .

The use of the .45 Long Colt designation started WAY before the 20th Century and is a time honored designation in both antique and gun shops.

All of this "usage" PREDATES such organizations as the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) or the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI).

I assure you that in the 1970s the gun parlance was to refer to the .45 Colt as the .45 Long Colt and it was neither STUPID nor IGNORANT to do so because that is what the users of the cartridge referred to when asking for the ammo. I've sold one hell of a lot of it, variously as .45 Colt, .45 LC, or .45 Long Colt. All are considered correct and help differentiate the round from other .45 rounds.

Now, Mr. Pedantic. Look at this and tell me what is correct, the normal everyday usage of what you can fit on a HEAD STAMP! Do you see what every single one of these are being sold as in their descriptions?

While I have never seen a .45 Long Colt head stamp, I do have cartridges with the HEAD STAMP of .45 LC on them. What, pray tell, does the "L" stand for in "LC", Buffalo Head?

Next time you want to call someone "Stupid!" be sure you are on firm common usage, industry, historical, and factual grounds.

[Swordmaker]

Sure, but if you walk up to the counter at Walmart and ask if they have .45, chances are good the clerk is going to hand you a box of .45 ACP.

For your Ruger Blackhawk .45 long Colt. Of course with the extra cylinder yer good to go Part of my point I was making about regular usage. . . but it goes all the way back to the usage in the US Army Cavalry in the 1870s through 1890s. It is NOT unacceptable usage at all. I have seen GUNS with that designated caliber on them, and as I told Buffalo, I have, somewhere around here, a period box of .45 Long Colt made by Colt (I don't think I sold it).

[Swordmaker]

Was he really worth an answer?

Some people just NEED to be pulled up by the short hairs, don't you think?

[ozzymandus]

I had no idea you were interested in my short hairs. That explains a lot. Get back to making up stories.

[Liberty Valance]

Thanks for the ping PROCON. Love these older models Swordmaker.

My latest is an early 1950's Winchester .22 pump - Model 62-A my father has passed down to me. He bought it new at the feed store in small-town West Texas. I believe he said he paid $45 for it.

Looks identical to this one ...

Do these come up at auction often?

[JoeProBono]

Got me this Rossi Matched Pair Pistol a while back. It shoots 45LC 410Ga & 22LR

[Squantos]

They all match ..... NSN ....:O) Buy the entire set !

[Big Red Badger]

IIRC two weeks ago here in San Diego,,,,,,500 bucks,,,

[Liberty Valance]

Thanks BRBadger.

[Swordmaker]

Now that’s a blowhard. And who’s “we”? You and Rick Harrison? Or turd in pocket syndrome? I’ve run my own successful business for over 40 years, and I don’t run it by cheating people out of their belongings. You haven’t got a clue about me or what I do, but that won’t stop you. If you think a TV pawn shop show is real, you’re even dumber than I originally guessed. I’ve noticed that people in the crookedest professions are the most sensitive about criticism, such as lawyers, used car dealers, and apparently you.

Boy, you are a piece of work. You are the one who seems to have his panties in a wad about Pawn Stars. You don't think there is a pawn shop with those things for sale in Las Vegas? I've been in the store just three months ago. My girlfriend and I visited there and bought some stuff. We met Mark Hall-Patton who happened to be there that day. He is indeed the administrator of the Clark County Museum system. We had a nice talk with him.

The shop is not as large as it seems on TV, nor are the people who you see on TV there every day now, but it is a "REAL" pawn shop with real products and items. I saw some of the items purchased on TV for sale in the shop for the prices they showed on TV. I saw people buying and I saw ordinary people pawning and selling things for fair prices.

Are some things on TV dramatized for TV? Of course. Do they take multiple takes to get it right? Probably. Is the show scripted? You bet.

But are the offers they make and the reasons they make those offers fake? No, they are not.

I've been in that position. I've bought used guns, antique and otherwise from a few dollars to thousands of dollars, from individuals up to the State of California. I've had to appraise the value (I was a certified expert for the Courts in California on the identification and value of firearms and a certified insurance appraiser) and determine what my shop could reasonable realize on any purchase and how long it would take to turn it over. The longer we keep it, the more it costs us to keep and the less we can afford to pay for it as it ties up capital or money we should have invested in something we could have turned over faster.

That's the SAME THING you claim Rick Harrison was lying about when he was truthfully telling the sellers WHY he could not offer them more — spending HIS MONEY — for their items. . . which YOU ignorantly call "cheating people out of their belongings." Please, tell me, what is about these people that entitles them to more than someone is willing to pay them for their items??? Are you going to be first in line to work for less than you work is worth? it's the same thing.

How in hell could Rick cheating them happen? How is he "cheating" them, Ozzie? All they have to do, and many of them do, is walk away with their item. This is the ultimate Capitalistic transaction of a WILLING SELLER negotiating with a WILLING BUYER who has the money to buy right now. You claim he is CHEATING them when he tells them the reasons for his offer. . . and he makes a final offer. They are FREE to accept it or not. He is not holding a gun to their heads.

I recall one episode where a woman wanted him to buy some piece of diamond and ruby jewelry for $1500 and he refused, saying, if he bought it for that, he would be cheating her. Instead he told her item was really worth $15,000 retail! He offered her $9,000 on the spot. He could have taken her for the $1500 she thought it was worth and wanted to sell it for, and made a cool $13,500 profit. She would have been happy and never known the difference. . . but he said HE would have known the difference. Instead of cheating her, he made her a fair wholesale offer for her piece. . . yet YOU claim he cheats people. BAH!

You have still not demonstrated that you know the difference between buying wholesale and selling at retail. Instead you seem to think that people in the business of buying and selling should buy high and sell low. It doesn't work that way.

As for who's "we" it is everyone on this thread you've insulted who tried to set you straight who also has run a business. Frankly, you can claim 40 years of anything you want, but you don't demonstrate that to me when you don't show even the basic grasp of how to make a profit by buying something at a reasonable margin to make money on it WHILE covering your costs of doing business. No, you just sling insults and call people names.

[Swordmaker]

I believe it was nicknamed 45 Long Colt only to differentiate it from the .45 Schofield, which was extensively used by the Army.

The US Army Cavalry did so, because there was a distinct problem in provisioning soldiers if the wrong ammunition was shipped to the wrong troopers. The .45 Schofield would chamber in the Colt but it could cause problems. . . but the .45 S&W Schofield would not chamber in the Colt. Oops.

Some commanders ordered their supply sergeants to always specify .45 "Long" Colt to make sure they did not get the shorter S&W rounds.

[Swordmaker]

I had no idea you were interested in my short hairs. That explains a lot. Get back to making up stories.

Are you ALWAYS an asshat who implies your opponents are LIARS???? You are really an ASSHAT. You have not provided anything of any value to this thread. I suggest you absent yourself.

[Swordmaker]

Do these come up at auction often?

I think there are some of the earlier 06 models in this auction. . . and maybe some of these. Frankly, I would be disinclined to buy one of these on this auction. The collectors are going to be bidding here and they tend to bid things UP!

[ozzymandus]

Your suggestion will be given all the consideration it deserves.

[Liberty Valance]

Thanks for the info Swordmaker. Hope to pass it on to my son when the time is right. It was the first .22 rifle I shot as a kid.

[Swordmaker]

Your suggestion will be given all the consideration it deserves.

Let me ask you a serious question.

You are running a business. A Pawn shop.

A potential customer comes in with an item he wants to sell you. An antique gun. He wants $1500 for it.

You don't know that much about this gun's value so you bring in an independent expert whose opinion you trust to tell you what it is worth retail with the agreement of the seller.

In front of the seller this expert tells you this gun is an XYZ .42 caliber Fraxits and its in very good condition.

When you ask him what could it be sold for, the expert says it's worth between $1000 and $1200 on a good day.

You tell the seller. "You heard what the expert said. Now what would you take?"

The customer says "I want $1200."

OK, ozzymandus. What would YOU offer this customer? Be Rick Harrison. Make him an offer. . . and explain your reasoning.

[Swordmaker]

Thanks for the info Swordmaker. Hope to pass it on to my son when the time is right. It was the first .22 rifle I shot as a kid.

Those are nice .22 rifles. I've been toying with getting one myself. You can buy reproductions made in Brazil and Italy now.