In a sense, we might just as well be talking about the Battle of Culloden. Nobody at FR was around in the 1860's and nobody at FR has ever even known anybody who was around in the 1860's. Surely, some of us have ancestors who were around, but we didn't know any of them.
I really think that most of the people who speak favorably about secession do so in large part because they see in secession some sort of answer to their frustrations about life in America now. The problem is that when they make their pitch for secession they allow themselves to get all tangled up with the controversies surrounding the secessions of the 1860's and the next thing you know they find themselves arguing that slavery was irrelevant (despite what the secessionists back then claimed) and that the USA is just some sort of a joint venture of states, etc.
The interesting question for me is why some of these folks find that life in the USA seems so intolerable. Obviously, we all have some good reasons to criticize this or that, but all in all this country seems to me a paradise compared to most places in the world. I feel very lucky to have been born here. And, I know that the things that must change will change with time. I don't feel like a slave and I don't feel that we are living in a fascist state. I have been given many opportunities in this country that I wouldn't have received elsewhere and, for the most part, I feel pretty free. So, I think it's unfortunate that a lot of these folks are having so much trouble finding the happiness here that I have found.
I agree Tau Food. If one is to talk in defense of the united States there will come a time when they will have to defend the mixed bag that is Manifest Destiny. If one is to talk in defense of the confederacy there will come a time when they will be obliged to support the south’s abiding interest in the Particular Institution. To pretend otherwise is to be dishonest and indeed to flirt with delusion.
The posts that I have seen offered up here are straightforward and unambiguous - with the exception of one poster who insists upon twisting the words of others and imputing values unto others whole cloth. He is innately dishonest and unworthy of engaging.
His loss not ours.
Argumentum ad populum. I think people have been misinformed about the war since 1861, and even more so 150 years later. I think most modern people lack the necessary cognitive capabilities to comprehend the zeitgeist of that time period, and always try to evaluate it based on what are the modern herd impression.
They are also unaware of how so many things that are a result of that war, and continue to negatively impact society today. Illegal Immigration, Abortion, Government's Anti-Religious policies, and Gay Marriage can all be traced back to the aftermath of that war.
In a sense, we might just as well be talking about the Battle of Culloden.
Funny you should mention that, because I have seen it argued in more than one place that the Civil war was really just a continuation of that and previous wars between the Scots and the English.
Nobody at FR was around in the 1860's and nobody at FR has ever even known anybody who was around in the 1860's. Surely, some of us have ancestors who were around, but we didn't know any of them.
I knew a man who's grandfather fought in the Civil war, but I have not seen him for awhile now. He was more than middle aged in the 1990s, and I suspect he is no longer around.
I really think that most of the people who speak favorably about secession do so in large part because they see in secession some sort of answer to their frustrations about life in America now.
Not just frustrations, but concern that the economic path we are on will only end in tragedy. When chained to a mob that cannot comprehend that you can't have an everlasting spending party, one becomes desperate to disassociate from such individuals who will obviously come to ruin at some point.
The problem is that when they make their pitch for secession they allow themselves to get all tangled up with the controversies surrounding the secessions of the 1860's
Allow? When it is the first thing out of the mouths of people to whom the subject is broached, what do you suggest can be used to steer the conversation back on track? It's not that people allow themselves to get tangled up in the slavery issue, it's that any discussion of secession cannot be considered rationally by the team cheerleaders for the Union. They have a religious fervor regarding the question of separating from the Union. To allow such a thing is tantamount to saying their "team" was in the wrong, and they simply love their team, and will admit no such thing under any circumstances.
They have bought in to the belief that Separation is impossible, and if you disagree, you must be a supporter of Slavery, and therefore your opinion need not be respected.
was irrelevant (despite what the secessionists back then claimed) and that the USA is just some sort of a joint venture of states, etc.
It was very relevant to the economics and financial assets of the South, but it was completely irrelevant to whether or not they had a right to leave; A distinction which is apparently too subtle for many people to grasp.
Again, if they had a right to leave, their reasons for doing so are irrelevant. If they did not have a right to leave, then no reason is sufficient, and is also therefore irrelevant.
The only relevant question is "Did they have a right to leave?"
The interesting question for me is why some of these folks find that life in the USA seems so intolerable.
It is not that it is currently intolerable, it is that we can see conditions approaching during which it will become increasingly intolerable. We can see the trends, and we very much fear where they are leading.
I have a very good track record for being accurate. My best Friend in High School is Black, and he and I used to argue about things all the time. He always said I was exaggerating the danger, and none of the stuff I worried about would ever happen. (This was decades ago.)
He called me up back around 2005, and told me I was absolutely right about everything I said would happen. He was astonished that so many things he thought impossible, turned out just the way I said they would.
I just look which direction things are going, and extrapolate while assuming the worst. People generally try to follow the easy path, and that always helps with predictions.
Obviously, we all have some good reasons to criticize this or that, but all in all this country seems to me a paradise compared to most places in the world.
Places in the World who's ideas and cultures we have been adopting, and with obvious and predictable consequences of becoming more like them.
Back in 2008 I joked that "African Prince Obama will do for the US what African leaders have been doing for African nations for quite awhile now." He is not American in culture, he is Marxist/African in his World View, and he cannot improve America, he can only make it look more like Kenya, or more accurately Rhodesia.
I feel very lucky to have been born here.
Amen. Still the best nation in the world, but working mightily to become like the others.
Some of us would rather jump ship before this happens.
Thanks for another great link! Bookmarked for future reference.
Tau Food: "Nobody at FR was around in the 1860's and nobody at FR has ever even known anybody who was around in the 1860's.
Surely, some of us have ancestors who were around, but we didn't know any of them."
One of my great-grandfathers, fresh off the boat, not English speaking, enlisted, fought, was captured & wounded, in the Civil War, and fortunately for me, survived.
Two others were conscientious objectors, and the fourth hired a replacement, who may or may not have survived the war, we don't know.
Point is: the Civil War is personal, and as close as my beloved grandparents' fathers.
Tau Food: "The interesting question for me is why some of these folks find that life in the USA seems so intolerable."
Not everybody draws a "long straw" in life.
And some who have a "long straw" are bitter their straw is not longer, or not the longest.
That's human nature, and it drives some to embrace ideologies which make them feel, well, "special".
My personal opinion is that they are all entitled to whatever beliefs they wish, but when they try to propagate such beliefs in a public forum like Free Republic, then those who can have an obligation to: point out the errors in their thinking.