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To: DiogenesLamp
What I am suggesting is that if a sufficiently large population has emerged from a geographical area to which they are native, they ought to be able to govern themselves in a manner they so choose, within the normal and usual rules of human interaction.

If you were to emphasize that aspect of your proposal (i.e., that a reorganization would be based upon the wishes of a significant percentage, a majority at a minimum) you could make that argument as a prospective proposal that wouldn't entangle you with the Confederacy, slavery, etc. Scotland just had a similar election.

Until financial factors are considered, one might suppose that red states would be more disposed to separate from the USA than blue states. But, as shown by Wallet Hub (a financial website), red states are more financially dependent on the Federal government than blue states. Overall, the Federal government is being used to transfer financial resources from blue states to red states. It would be a huge mistake to overlook or to ignore this fact. We constantly notice news stories that make it clear that politicians from red states somehow never make good on their election day promises to reduce Federal spending. We shouldn't wonder why.

At the present time, there isn't any state in which anything like a majority of people would wish to sever their connection with the USA. For better of for worse, I think we're all in this together and that if we are going to reduce the size of our government, we're going to have to do it within the context of the present political structure. And, we're going to need the support of both red states and blue states to succeed. The fiscal problem may have to get worse before there will be enough political will to reverse course.

690 posted on 07/30/2015 8:47:42 PM PDT by Tau Food (Never give a sword to a man who can't dance.)
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To: Tau Food
If you were to emphasize that aspect of your proposal (i.e., that a reorganization would be based upon the wishes of a significant percentage, a majority at a minimum) you could make that argument as a prospective proposal that wouldn't entangle you with the Confederacy, slavery, etc. Scotland just had a similar election.

You can't. People won't let you. It always goes back to "Why do you support Slavery?"

And Yes, Scotland did have just such a referendum. I am actually disappointed in the Scots. They have gone from the "Brave and Proud" to the whiny and dependent. England pumps great quantities of money into them, and it has turned them into a nation of indolent Dole recipients.

England managed to convince them to remain in the Union with even more bribes to their welfare class.

Until financial factors are considered, one might suppose that red states would be more disposed to separate from the USA than blue states. But, as shown by Wallet Hub (a financial website), red states are more financially dependent on the Federal government than blue states.

I know this has been asserted, but I think a lot of proxies are being used to arrive at this conclusion. It is obviously true that many Liberal States (Blue is the Conservative Color. It is the Media that deliberately portrayed us as "Red" to cover for Bill Clinton's obvious communist leanings in 1992.) are very wealthy, and contribute a great deal of money into the Federal Treasury, but much of the outgoing money sent to the states is not really benefiting the state.

As I pointed out with the Scots, funding the Dole is counterproductive to the well being of a state. Yes, there are a lot of poor people in Conservative States (I theorize that Wealth is a common factor in promoting Liberalism) but as Benjamin Franklin pointed out:

“I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.”

Likewise, Federal matching funds, and Federal Highway dollars have become a cronyism graft distribution system with side orders of coercion of the States into follow the Dictates of the Federal Bureaucrats.

The Education system is another example of where Federal money meddling has made things worse, not better. And so on.

In other words, just gross numbers does not give an accurate assessment of the costs versus benefits of taking money from one group of people and giving it to other groups of people. Of course this middleman Control and Skimming scheme is what Washington Runs on. Indeed, LBJ demonstrated that if you control where the Federal Dollars go, you can bribe voters into keeping you in power. It is why the Democrats held congress from the early 1960s to 1994.

It is also the single most significant factor in the destruction of other civilizations throughout history.

Overall, the Federal government is being used to transfer financial resources from blue states to red states. It would be a huge mistake to overlook or to ignore this fact.

Hasn't been overlooked, it has just not been looked on as all that wonderful of a situation. I could write a dozen essays on the damage to society caused by Federal dollars going to places where they shouldn't. It is not much different from the Eurozone funding Greece and achieving the same bad results.

At the present time, there isn't any state in which anything like a majority of people would wish to sever their connection with the USA.

Nor I, at the Present time, but I see this as a distortion of the financial system. Let me give you an analogy.

Let us say that a group of People finding themselves on a lifeboat after their ship sinks represent a fair distribution of the American populace. The more sensible believe that they should save their stores of food and water and ration it carefully to make it last as long as possible, because rescue is uncertain and they have a grim but realistic view of things.

The majority, being accustomed to comfort, wants to eat full portions at their convenience, and show no signs of understanding the possibility that the little group may face desperate times.

The rational and sensible people, would be foolish to take their portions and hold some of them back, because if they do so, when the majority becomes hungry, they will simply seize the rationed portions from the sensible people.

The only rational course of action is for the sensible to eat their portions, just like the foolish. That way they will at least be equal in strength to the foolish, rather than at a disadvantage when things get grim.

I refer to this principle as "Enlightened Hypocrisy", because it is hypocritical to advocate one thing, and then do another, but the point remains that in grim circumstances it is foolish to hold to a principle that puts you at a serious disadvantage, merely because you believe it is correct.

In the same manner, the Federal government has been throwing a money party for many decades, racking up higher and higher debt each year, and counting on future money to keep the credit coming in. The math says this is an exponential function, and at some point must become unsustainable, at which point the party stops, and things will likely become grim.

Look at Federal dollars flowing out to the various state economies as those rations on that Life Boat. It would be a foolish state to stand on principle and say "The Federal Government should not be spending this money on these things, so therefore we will reject it."

This would put them in the position of instantly being disadvantaged relative to everyone else who have been accepting the money, and it would very likely result in their ouster from government, for far too many people of even the most conservatives states are all too addicted to Federal dollars.

So therefore, I advocate that everyone continue to accept the Federal dollars because it is foolish to make a gesture that will have no impact on anyone but themselves, and the only impact it will have will be to put them at a disadvantage relative to everyone else.

We must all eat the rations until they are all gone.

The fiscal problem may have to get worse before there will be enough political will to reverse course.

There is not now, nor will their ever be, enough political will to reverse course. The population is ruined morally, and is incapable of denying itself it's monetary addiction. We will go the way of the Romans, and for exactly the same reasons.

The Modern equivalent of "Bread and Circuses" is Welfare and Television (now Internet) and in any case, accomplishes the same purpose; To make the indolent members of society mollified enough to keep voting the "vote farmers" in positions of power so that they can enrich themselves.

Rome Debased their currency, and we do the same thing through inflation. Rome allowed non-loyal barbarians to immigrate without assimilation into Roman culture, and we are doing the same.

The Human question is not new. The same social forces that motivated people a thousand years ago are the same social forces that motivate us today. We just keep playing this game over and over again, because as a sequence of offspring, we have no recollection how this same scenario worked out in previous iterations, though there are some clues.


741 posted on 07/31/2015 8:52:53 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: Tau Food
Tau Food: "But, as shown by Wallet Hub (a financial website), red states are more financially dependent on the Federal government than blue states.
Overall, the Federal government is being used to transfer financial resources from blue states to red states."

Thanks much for that link.
I've looked for that data for years, and not found it, though long suspected it was the case.

The significance is pretty mind-boggling...
My state, Pennsylvania, as in so much else, seems to be right smack in the middle of the pack.

789 posted on 08/01/2015 12:16:37 PM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective...)
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