DiogenesLamp: "That is factually wrong on the face of it."
I will stand corrected on the day that you produce a verified quote from any legitimate Founder who said that secession "at pleasure" was A-OK with him.
But no such quote exists, because that was not their view.
They considered their Union "perpetual" until or unless dissolved by 1) mutual consent, or 2) oppression & usurpations, meaning a major breach of compact.
They did not consider secession "at pleasure" legitimate.
DiogenesLamp: "We received no "mutual consent" from the British, so stop wasting my time with bullsh*t."
Sorry, but it's your mind that's "wasted".
The two situations were totally different.
With the Brits, there was no duly ratified constitution with the 13 colonies.
There was no American representation in Britain's parliament.
British troops were garrisoned in American cities, occupying American homes... etc., etc.
There was a long list of legitimate grievances which the colonists had for years attempted to negotiate, without success.
By stark contrast, in December 1860 the southern Slave-Power still dominated Federal government just as it had for nearly all of the republic's existence.
No wrong was done the South, no breach of compact, and no "mutual consent" for secession.
And so Deep South Fire Eaters declared their secession, provoked war, started war, declared war and sent military aid to the Union state of Missouri -- all before a single Confederate soldier was killed directly in battle with any Union force, and before any Union army invaded a single Confederate state.
No you won't, you will lie and say "That doesn't mean what it says, it means this other thing over here that agrees with what I wish to believe."
Let's see if I am wrong about this: Here's your quote.
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
And signed by these men; Representatives of 13 slave holding states.
Georgia:
Button Gwinnett
Lyman Hall
George Walton
North Carolina:
William Hooper
Joseph Hewes
John Penn
South Carolina:
Edward Rutledge
Thomas Heyward, Jr.
Thomas Lynch, Jr.
Arthur Middleton
Massachusetts:
John Hancock
Maryland:
Samuel Chase
William Paca
Thomas Stone
Charles Carroll of Carrollton
Virginia:
George Wythe
Richard Henry Lee
Thomas Jefferson
Benjamin Harrison
Thomas Nelson, Jr.
Francis Lightfoot Lee
Carter Braxton
Pennsylvania:
Robert Morris
Benjamin Rush
Benjamin Franklin
John Morton
George Clymer
James Smith
George Taylor
James Wilson
George Ross
Delaware:
Caesar Rodney
George Read
Thomas McKean
New York:
William Floyd
Philip Livingston
Francis Lewis
Lewis Morris
New Jersey:
Richard Stockton
John Witherspoon
Francis Hopkinson
John Hart
Abraham Clark
New Hampshire:
Josiah Bartlett
William Whipple
Massachusetts:
Samuel Adams
John Adams
Robert Treat Paine
Elbridge Gerry
Rhode Island:
Stephen Hopkins
William Ellery
Connecticut:
Roger Sherman
Samuel Huntington
William Williams
Oliver Wolcott
New Hampshire:
Matthew Thornton
You are right. There was this thing that invokes the power of "Nature, and of Nature's God", which I take to mean the almighty. A bunch of subsequent rules agreed to by a bunch of men has no power in comparison to that.
There was a long list of legitimate grievances which the colonists had for years attempted to negotiate, without success.
If you will read the document, it points out that mentioning the grievances is only a courtesy, not a requirement.
a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation
In the case of Southern Secession, there was no need to list causes, because the "causes" had been the subject of debate throughout the Nation for decades.
and before any Union army invaded a single Confederate state.
And once again, if you will read the thread, specifically the items posted by PeaRidge regarding the messages from Lincoln and other Union officials, you will discover that an invasion fleet was ten miles away from Ft. Sumter and ready to land. The Union was invading, they just stopped the mission after they heard that Ft. Sumter was under attack.
Most likely it was the knowledge of the arrival of the Union fleet that precipitated the attack.