Posted on 06/15/2015 9:07:47 PM PDT by nickcarraway
“On your refutations are you simply referring to 47, XXY (Klinefelter syndrome)?”
No, some males have an XX karyotype, not just the 47, XXY.
exactly
freedom from making those choices for yourself
An example of a male having the XX karyotype is de la Chappelle syndrome.
Easy....when I see a good looking guy and say to myself, “OOOOH-LA-LA.”
“Easy....when I see a good looking guy and say to myself, “OOOOH-LA-LA.””
So, when was the last time you had your genetic sex chromosomes tested and found to be XX with no abnormal SY genes or autosomes? A woman was in the hospital for some unrelated medical tests when a very inconsiderate resident informed her she was really a man because her sex chromosomes tested as the XY karyotype. Her physician had to calm the distraught woman and explain the unusual sex chromosomes did not make her a man despite the general circumstance of most males having the XY karyotype.
You're still talking about abnormalities as if they were normal when they're not.
ABnormal - deviating from what is normal or usual, typically in a way that is undesirable or worrying.
When you check the box and get the loan, don’t have to score as high, get the fedgov job interview ahead of everyone else, etc...
“You’re still talking about abnormalities as if they were normal when they’re not.”
You are using a false and illogical strawman argument, because I never said or implied such exceptions were to be regarded as normal. On the contrary, they are the exceptions which demonstrate the falsity of many of the comments in this forum and the false assumption a person can know they are a woman by a simple [fill in the blank nonsense]. The fact of the matter is one woman in several thousand has an abnormal sex chromosome karyotype, and many of these exceptional women go through life entirely unaware of this exception. Doubtless there are at least a few participants in this forum who have abnormal sex chromosomes, and some of them could very well be unaware of their unusual sex chromosomes.
“Yet despite your arguments one would normally, in general and for the larger portion of the population, use their chromosomes to determine whether or not they were male or female, right?”
No, definitely not. The exceptions demonstrate how women live their lives, become pregnant, and give birth to children without ever being aware their sex chromosomes could have been used to accuse them of being males just because of their unusual sex chromosomes. It takes a lot more than just the basic sex chromosomes to determine the masculinity and femininity of a person, including the ability to give birth to children.
In an argument with a man who thought he was a woman at work, it continuously sought approval and recognition from the “girls” as one of the girls. Changing the driver’s license, getting an employment badge with new name, that was nothing compared to an obsessive need to get recognition, approval and affirmation.
I’m a woman in STEM. I define myself as wife, mother, engineer.
It continuously pressed to go out with me to lunch, a girl’s lunch. I declined. It wanted to sit and chat as girls at lunch, so I ate at my desk. I used a different bathroom on the other side of the building to have privacy in the bathroom.
Finally, it started criticizing me on my not-so-feminine appearance. I wear pants, tennis shoes, have short hair, don’t bother with makeup. It tried to say it was more feminine and more female than me. I said I was female, though when it lacked the plumbing, I’d have no concern with it in the women’s bathroom.
It challenged me, “What makes you more of a woman than me?”
My answer: “I gave birth twice.”
It blew up, then became passive-aggressive that is beyond the cattiness of the women at work I’ve had issues with. Its harassment and deliberate interference in my work (It was a system admin, I was second level tech support) got so bad I had to file sexual harassment claims against the company for its behavior, because direct management only wanted to accommodate it.
When it wouldn’t help me with an outage affecting thousands of users, then HR actually gave a flip and paid attention to my documented proof of its interfering with my system permissions, giving my tickets lowest priority even when level 1. And taking seriously the horror of sitting at your lunch to eat alone, and it comes over to describe in sick detail the surgeries it had had and was going to have.
I’ve dealt with sexual harassment from men, I’ve been mistaken for a secretary, and had idiots as bosses (of both genders). And I’ve had two supportive male managers who supported me when I had little kids, including one with health problems in the first months of his life. The two female manager’s I’ve had were nice and efficient, and one barely competent but not bad.
The tranny was the craziest and the worst, in part because management didn’t reign IT in. All because political correctness says transexualism trumped feminism.
What is the baseline for chromosomes?
“What is the baseline for chromosomes?”
It’s currently unknown. New relationships and dependencies are being discovered year by year, and they have barely scratched the surface since recently mapping the Human genome. Many of the previously unexplained genetic abnormalities and nominal variations in gene expressions have only recently been discovered to be governed in part by modifiers on the so-called sex chromosomes, only to then be further influenced and/or controlled by autosomes previously unexpected. Human DNA is huge and complex beyond belief. The determination of sexual characteristics are turning up in some very surprising and unexpected places in this DNA molecule. Given the fact that every Human being starts out with the physical development of a female in the early fetal development and must undergo a number of changes to partially or fully develop into a male, it remains to be seen what roles the presently unknown autosome relationships have upon implementing and obstructing certain genetic and hormonal activities related to sexual characteristics in individual people with or without abnormal sexual characteristics.
How can that be? Even you say...
Many of the previously unexplained genetic abnormalities and nominal variations in gene expressions have only recently been discovered...
These "recent discoveries" you mention had to be compared to something to know that there even were abnormalities and nominal variations.
Science deniers!
Apparently.
“These “recent discoveries” you mention had to be compared to something to know that there even were abnormalities and nominal variations.”
Many of the so-called intersex conditions result in visibly unusual genitalia, sexual characteristics, and behavior, while other intersex conditions are often not obvious enough to be recognized as a difference from what is an arguable norm in a population. Consequently, what can be described as the “norm” is a sometimes arbitrary cultural choice not all persons and cultures are going to be able to agree upon.
Whenever and whatever a group can agree upon as a “social norm” for sexual characteristics there is still the problem of determining exactly which chromosomes in the Human genome must be present and functioning to produce this cultural norm for sexual characteristics in an individual person. We now know it takes much more than just the presence of the XX and XY chromosomes to produce any child at all; and it requires the interplay of certain sex chromosomes, autosomes, hormones, natal environment, post-natal environment, nutrition, and more to activate and not activate the genetic instructions necessary to produce a person with a certain set of physical, mental, and sexual characteristics. Consequently it remains unknown precisely what additional chromosomal and non-chromosomal factors are required to produce an individual person with a given set of sexual and non-sexual characteristics.
As recently as 1989 the SRY gene was unknown despite the fact it presence on one of the sex chromosomes can produce a male from an otherwise male sex chromosome and a female from an otherwise male chromosome. It still remains to be discovered which other chromosomes interact with the SRY to produce such results on the XX and XY sex chromosomes. Consequently it is fair to observe it is still not fully known or understood how the XX and XY chromosomes function or non-chromosomal factors function to produce a person with any given set of sexual characteristics. In the absence of such evidence, any unsupported conclusions amount to speculation and in more extreme examples as notional fictions not all that far removed from the baby in the cabbage patch variety of fair tales.
[CORRECTIONS for typos]
“These “recent discoveries” you mention had to be compared to something to know that there even were abnormalities and nominal variations.”
Many of the so-called intersex conditions result in visibly unusual genitalia, sexual characteristics, and behavior, while other intersex conditions are often not obvious enough to be recognized as a difference from what is an arguable norm in a population. Consequently, what can be described as the “norm” is a sometimes arbitrary cultural choice not all persons and cultures are going to be able to agree upon.
Whenever and whatever a group can agree upon as a “social norm” for sexual characteristics there is still the problem of determining exactly which chromosomes in the Human genome must be present and functioning to produce this cultural norm for sexual characteristics in an individual person. We now know it takes much more than just the presence of the XX and XY chromosomes to produce any child at all; and it requires the interplay of certain sex chromosomes, autosomes, hormones, natal environment, post-natal environment, nutrition, and more to activate and not activate the genetic instructions necessary to produce a person with a certain set of physical, mental, and sexual characteristics. Consequently it remains unknown precisely what additional chromosomal and non-chromosomal factors are required to produce an individual person with a given set of sexual and non-sexual characteristics.
As recently as 1989 the SRY gene was unknown despite the fact its presence on one of the sex chromosomes can produce a male from an otherwise female sex chromosome and a female from an otherwise male chromosome. It still remains to be discovered which other chromosomes interact with the SRY to produce such results on the XX and XY sex chromosomes. Consequently, it is fair to observe it is still not fully known or understood how the XX and XY chromosomes function or non-chromosomal factors function to produce a person with any given set of sexual characteristics. In the absence of such evidence, any unsupported conclusions amount to speculation and in more extreme examples as notional fictions not all that far removed from the baby in the cabbage patch variety of fairy tales.
I'm talking about a scientific baseline and you're talking "social norms"? That's frigging hilarious.
It seems to me that you're just afraid to my answer question about what that baseline actually is. It would blow your whole specious arguments away if you did, wouldn't it.
In infertile couples the frequency of chromosome abnormalities is increased compared with the population baseline.
Go on, you can say it.
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