[rjsimmon]

Remember that the Germans lost, big time, at Kursk and every battle after thanks in part to the T-34

The German loss at Kursk had nothing, Nothing, NOTHING to do with the T-34. They were simply out manned. Fielding 900k versus 1.9m Soviets. Germany had less than 3,000 tanks and the Russians had over 5,000. 10k Nazi guns to 25k Soviet guns.

Losses were 198k (KIA/WIA)on the German side compared to over 550k Russians (KIA/WIA). Germany lost 760 tanks to over 6000 Russian tanks.

The battle belonged to Germany for the first 2 days but lost on the 3rd due to massed Soviet forces. The Soviet KV-1 and the brilliance of Zhukov being the deciding factor on more than one occasion. Germans had a kill ration of upwards of 22 to 1. They simply could not sustain their salient.

Buy-in-large, the Germans defeated the Soviets until the Russians massed with their artillery and rifle companies. Typical tank-v-tank engagements ended like this:

[dfwgator]

Soviets lost 100,000 just taking Berlin.

[Chainmail]

We will have to disagree, I guess. The Germans lost because they vastly underestimated the Soviets, their leadership and their commitment.

It doesn’t make any difference at all if the Sovs lost more tanks than the Germans. The important part was that the Soviets knew their equipment and forces and the ground. The Germans started retreating from then on.

I can never fathom how we get so many Germanophiles on the FreeRepublic. The Germans lost because they made bad decisions and they had a corrupt cause. Nothing is better than when evil is defeated.

By the way, the KV-1 was a mediocre tank whose only claim to fame is massive armor. It was slow and difficult to maneuver and easily defeated in combat. Conversely, we had to develop new anti armor weapons when it was our turn to deal with the excellent T-34.

Other than comic books, what actual experience do you have with armor?

[X Fretensis]

The KV-1 was armed with the same 76 mm gun as the 1941 & 42 T-34s were armed with. It’s armor was heaver but the KV-1 was slower,and less maneuverable, The Soviets had already decided to end production of the KV-1 series by the time of the Battle of Kursk. At the beginning of the Battle of Kursk tank strength for the Soviet Central and Voronezh fronts was as follows: T-34 1,847, KV-1 108, M3 Grant 108,M3 Stuart 24, M4A2 Sherman 38, MK II Matilda 18, MK III Valentine 31, MK IV Churchill 42. Actual Soviet armor strength was greater when including the BT series light tanks, and SU self propelled anti tank guns. Unable to get tank breakdown for the Steppe Front which was Zhukov’s strategic reserve. Would have to think that it was equipped with approximately the same ratio of T-34s to other tanks.