Her mommy...and friend
Buddy, the Seeing-Eye pioneer...
Posted on 01/10/2014 12:51:52 PM PST by Slings and Arrows
I disagree.
European supporters tend to imbue their dogs with perfection, but it just doesn’t look so. Every dog we’ve had with pure Euro lines has had horrible allergies, eg, a dirty little secret not even acknowledged. To think you cannot possibly get some dogs who are overbearing and dangerous is arrogant and foolish, when you breed for “fearlessness” and hardness. Especially with such a huge population.
Look, I like much of the German model and dogs. But I call them as I see them. Don’t think I’m pro American show just because I called Europeans into question. Yet that always happens! I want the old GS, long before I was born, though even then they were gaining the rep. Believe me, it is not simply American show dogs who have caused trouble. In fact, they were good dogs until the ‘70s.
As for the standards, they really aren’t very different. The problem is people ignoring them as they do the Constitution. Being on paper doesn’t mean it will be followed.
As for your opinion on stability, which didn’t mention aggression, where are the stats? No one breaks it down by which show or working line it is or BYB. I have no stats either, but there is my opinion, my hypothesis. You may also be seeing the best dogs at the trials. I know you weren’t seeing Amer dogs at Schutzhund events. If anything, Amer dogs are more likely skittish, but that doesn’t mean they will chew someone to death. Some are fear-biters, but apparently genuine aggression is still more dangerous than fear.
Actually, what you are describing is the correct temperament for GSDs. They should not make indiscriminate friends, and should prefer their family. The breed standard calls for aloofness with strangers. Generally, our GSDs adopt one person as their preferred “owner,” even though there may be a lot of people/kids in the immediate family.
One of our dogs several years ago “adopted” my wife, and while he was in his teenage months (say 10 months to about 20 months) you had to be careful with him when my wife was around, especially if he didn’t know you. He didn’t like anyone around her but me. But he outgrew/learned that it was okay for people to be around her, and tolerated it with no problems. But he was always watchful. My wife and I just knew that if anyone ever even attempted to do anything to her that he didn’t approve of, he would take matters in his own hands. It was comforting to know that you had a dog that was capable of making correct judgments on certain situations, and could be relied on to react correctly. A well bred and well trained GSD can do things that most people aren’t aware of; and they can be better judges of character and intent than a lot of people.
Very good dog, and was a very good breeding dog.
And actually, that is almost the exact analogy. Dog lovers cannot stand the idea that dogs which look SO incredibly different could possibly have different emotional and mental characteristics, too! They’re all the same! Watch FReepers turn into liberals on dog threads.
The numbers in the linked are report are not government numbers - they are drawn from press accounts, which are even more unreliable.
>>I have never known a gentler, more sweet-natured animal in all my life.<<
That is wonderful. My wife’s family has 2 dogs — the Pit Bull-esque (not quite a full PB) is a sweetheart. The freaking little kick dog bit me and it still hurts 5 weeks later.
But I still don’t trust PBs — it takes a firm hand of the owner to maintain them.
I just hate looking in the GS Review seeing memorial ads for not-so-famous show dogs simply saying “2007-2011”. No one ever tells how their dog died. You have to wonder why are they dying? What disease? So we know if we should avoid that line altogether? Oh no, can’t have that embarrassment on top of grief. It should be part of the record - cause of death.
Her mommy...and friend
Buddy, the Seeing-Eye pioneer...
GERMAN SHEPHERD PING LIST
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The Pop Tart would be on the "Teacher's Guide"........never mind.
(Anyway, I never leave the house without my AR 15 Assault Chicken, then again the Conceal Carry can be a bit tricky.)
Well, you can disagree. No problem there.
I would just take issue with some of the generalizations you bring up, such as: allergies, overly aggressive dogs, etc.
I could talk/write for hours on what you bring up, but I won’t. However, I will touch on each a bit.
1) Allergies. What you mentioned is not exclusive to any type of GSD. It can be present in all bloodlines. But, what we have found is that a lot of skin and other problems diagnosed as “allergies” are not allergies, but are actually due to the poor dog food that is being sold as “premium” dog food here in the USA and in Europe. In about 85% of the diagnosed allergies we have seen, switching to a good, high quality dog food (or even to home-made food) fixed the problems. It take awhile, sometimes as much as a year, but it does work. The problem was not allergies, but crap food. (A separate issue is also the quality of the veterinary care and diagnosis...)
2) Aggression, fearless, hardness, overbearing characteristics. It sounds like you are not a competitive dog trainer, particularly for schutzhund. And it sounds like you have watched and believed a little too much of the Cesar the “Dog Whisperer.” Suffice it to say that a lot of what you are talking about is not what you think it is, and has more to do with training methods than genetics/breeding. It is true that European GSD are bred to do bite work, and they have to have a certain ability to be aggressive, but problems with genetically over-aggressive dogs is overblown. I have only seen a small hand full of genuinely over-aggressive dogs in over 30 years of training and breeding, and these were only placed with people that knew how to handle the dog and had experience with this. Nearly all responsible breeders worldwide will not place these dogs indiscriminately (if due to nothing else but liability issues). However, there is a small population of breeders and brokers that have no such ethics, and will sell these dogs to unsuspecting people. I have also seen this, and it does not make for a good situation, and generally ends up with the dog being euthanized. There is a lot more that can be said about this, but this post is already too long.
3) Breed standard adherence. Yes, you are correct in that it is only words, but breeders that want to be known as good breeders had better breed to the standard and have their dogs periodically evaluated by an impartial judge, or they won’t last very long. Take my word for it, if you don’t follow the published standard, you won’t last very long. People won’t buy your dogs. Most people that “want” to be breeders last less than 5 years. They don’t realize how hard it really is to follow a standard, and to have your dogs out in public and evaluated and talked about.
4) Stability, and aggression again. Not sure exactly what “stats” you are referring to and what you are trying to point out... As for the ability to perform protection routines in the European bloodlines, both working and show lines are required to have working titles to be shown, so the ability is there, in varying degrees. (Not going to talk about “fake” titles, etc. as that is a whole different can of worms...) Not true in AKC dogs. As I already pointed out, they are essentially not the same breed, and most responsible breeders on both sides of that chasm will not mix the two. Almost never works out good, past one generation or so.
5) “Fear-biters.” I don’t know what sort of experience you have had with this sort of thing, but fear biting can be extremely dangerous and damaging. My wife sees quite a bit of this in her business, and she specializes in these sorts of behavior problems. Your distinction between “genuine aggression” and “fear biting” is artificial. Fear biting is aggression, as the dog actually tries to bite or is successful. The motivation behind the act is the issue, not that actual aggressive act. It is not anything as simple as you are suggesting. And as I stated earlier, genetically overly aggressive dogs are rare, especially in GSDs.
Sorry for the length of the post.... Enjoyed the discussion!
Nice looking dog! What are his bloodlines? (Sorry, being breeder, I always like to know...)
I strongly advise against IWB carry.
Take a look at some of the GSROC dogs that are up for adoption now. Can't believe people have not at least inquired about them.
http://www.gsroc.org/2013/detail.gsr?id=2943
http://www.gsroc.org/2013/detail.gsr?id=2939
http://www.gsroc.org/2013/detail.gsr?id=2912
http://www.gsroc.org/2013/detail.gsr?id=2908
http://www.gsroc.org/2013/detail.gsr?id=2746
Yes, that is troubling.
We have a really good veterinarian that we have used for over 15 years now, and he is a reproductive specialist and diagnostician supreme.
He says he is seeing a lot of cancer in GSDs, particularly the AKC lines. He thinks it is due to several causes: 1) Very small gene pool in AKC dogs, much smaller than the European lines; 2) Not as much screening for genetic problems as European lines; 3) Dogs are living much longer now, since we have a better handle on a lot of the diseases that killed dogs in previous years. As such, diseases that never had a chance to manifest themselves are now showing up more frequently. And, of course, some of these are lethal.
We are seeing a lot of hermangiocarcinoma (not sure about the spelling). It is a blood-borne cancer that has rapidly growing tumors all over the body and is lethal (the tumors can grow fast and big, and eventually rupture, and the dog bleeds to death internally). If you know of a dog that is relatively young (5-9) that died in its sleep, there is real good chance that this was the cause. It is hard to diagnose and can kill in a matter of weeks, once it starts up.
We are also seeing bone cancers, and breast cancers. And of course, the ubiquitous “bloat” or gastric torsion, which has a genetic component.
In short, there are a lot of new things starting to show up now that we need to start following and breed out of the breed, but as these diseases only show up when dogs are older, it is very hard to weed this out of your breeding program. By the time you start seeing it, the dogs in question are mostly retired from breedings and you are working with their kids and grandkids before you can start collecting information on these sorts of things.... It will be a very hard thing to do.
I can’t agree more with you. I’ve been a dog owner for more than 50 years, shown them at AKC meets and bred them. I’ve never had a “bad” dog. There was one dog (pup) that I had that didn’t want to be sold. She nipped at every prospective buyer. We kept her and she tuned out to be a AKC champ and great with the grand kids.
A lot of shelters will call any stocky mutt they get a pit bull.
http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalSafety/images/dogbreeds-a.pdf
No they won't because they want to adopt out their dogs and pit bulls are less adoptable.
Oh, I’m with you on that. A dog who stays inside to guard during the night is going to alert you right away if something’s up.
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