Posted on 06/10/2011 10:09:12 AM PDT by decimon
You have “forced” me to do some research this weekend..I’m fairly sure of my facts, but will verify and discuss with you later. If you can provide any links/sources to substantiate your statements, I’d appreciate it. Thanks
My post #41 crossed your #38..same comments apply again, best
French casualties were far worse than British. The official statistics are 1,697,800 French dead, or 4.29% of their total population, versus 994,138 British dead, or 2.19% of their total population. Adding British Empire forces (Canadians, Anzacs, South Africans, etc) brings their total to 1,225,914, still far behind the French.
Boy, have I enjoyed reading your profile! One day I hope to make your acquaintance.
Sally Marks is the one recent historian who has actually delved deep into the math of WWI German reparations. She wrote a good-sized chapter in a Routledge festschrift about 10 years ago or so.
Most analyses seem to be the work of non-economist historians.
Ultimately I find that all this misrepresentation of Versailles and of the established practice of reparations is in service of a rational explanation of the supposed inevitability of National Socialism.
It was neither rational or inevitable - sometimes nations do irrational things. Human nature can be very dark and unpredictable.
I find these arguments similar to the arguments that 9/11 was inevitable and was a predictable and foreseeable response to US foreign policy.
Well, thank you. It’s really just a dumping ground for anything that strikes my fancy and which I don’t want to lose.
Every once in awhile a thread comes along which I wish was taking place in my living room over cigars and a few bottles of single malt. This is, of course, one of them.
The first day of the First Battle of the Somme the Brits lost over 19,000 dead and took 35,000 casualties. Adjusting for population sizes that would be the equivalent of the present day US loosing 125,000 dead and taking 225,000 casualties - in one day.
I’ve read that casualties suffered by the forces of the Confederate States in the Civil War were proportionately comparable to those suffered by the major European combatants in WW I. The North lost similar numbers, but its population was much larger.
http://wesulm.bravehost.com/history/vienna_siege.htm
The recent History Channel show on Gettysburg pointed out that the number of Americans killed during the war was proportionally equal to 6 million dead out of today’s population.
My interest in military history began with Patton, and your short post helps me understand the cultural and academic barriers Patton had to overcome in trying to introduce tank doctrine in the US Army.
Patton designed the last military sabre for calvary officers, I beieve, as a Calvary Lt. Colonel as late as 1930 or so. I was so struck by that.
Even more impressive is his integration of air and ground attack, where the officers actually involved in the air phase were able to essentially dictate to Patton when to attack.
Thanks for the observation, and I echo someone else’s comment on the thread that this would be much better done with cigars and cognac, or a good bourbon, in comfortable leather armchairs.
Germany lost far more than the British, as did many other countries, proportionately speaking. The worst casualties in WW I, proportionate to population, were not in the West, which most history books concentrate on, but in the Balkans: Greece, Turkey, Romania, Serbia.
Mining and tunneling go back to the 13th century and before. In the days before gunpowder the sappers would undermine a tower while building an inflamable wooden framework to support it. The mine being finished, they’d stuff the chamber with combustible materials, set everything on fire, and wait for the targeted tower to fall into the hole.
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http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dccfarr/Messines.htm
[snip] There has been much controversy concerning the missing mines, one came to light in 1955, when its 32,000Ibs charge was detonated by a thunderstorm, fortunately there were no casualties. The same may not be said today if one were to detonate... on June 7th 1917, nineteen of the mines were fired... The explosion was heard by David Lloyd George, the British Prime Minister who was in his study in 10 Downing Street in London... The outstanding achievement brought joy to the British public, however the losses were still substantial[.] Allied killed and wounded were put at 24,562... German casualty figures were put at 23,000. [/snip]
IOW, even with this single, supposedly massive, stroke, German losses were still 1500+ fewer than British/French/etc losses. Remarkable — except that it’s obviously the product of overestimation of German casualty rates, itself the result of wartime propaganda.
The danger of believing official propaganda has been illustrated well since that time, for example, the Six Day War, in which Egyptian media trumpeted the entirely fictional brilliant victories over Israel — and no one dared to tell Nasser, hey, buddy, we make this stuff up 24/7 even when we’re not fighting. The final nail was driven by the ragged remains of the Egyptian forces staggered, thirsty, up to the Suez Canal, then those who could still swim plunged in to try to make it home before the IDF arrived.
Not for the squeamish (or people on dialup, it’s a big image):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Battle_of_Messines_-_destroyed_German_trench.jpg
Also, “greatest non-nuclear explosion of all time” has been claimed for lots of conventional explosions, including the WWII Operation Aphrodite detonation that killed Joseph Kennedy, Jr. Apparently he was actually in the process of radio communication regarding flight status, while still over England, and in the background on his end something started to make a hissing sound. The brilliant light from the blast was seen and the sound was heard all over. That was a mere 10+ tons of high explosive, but it was not muffled by the ground, either. :’)
As I understand it, the Brits didn’t allow deferments in WWI. This resulted in there best and brightest college students being killed. We may still be seeing the results.
The Treaty of Versailles is one of those instances where "splitting the difference" was the worst thing to do. The Germans might have accepted with good grace much more lenient terms. The Germans might have sullenly submitted to far harsher terms, that really left them with no hope. But Versailles was too harsh for them accept, and not harsh enough for them to be left without hope of bettering their lot by war.
You donate to The Civil War Trust? So do I, it’s agreat organization.
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