Posted on 12/04/2008 4:10:43 PM PST by BGHater
130,000 inflatable jubs missing at sea: Oz mag issues floating chesticle alert
The Register (UK) | 4th December 2008 11:03 GMT | Lester Haines
Posted on 12/04/2008 3:21:32 PM PST by Pharmboy
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2143047/posts
You said — “I’ll second that. First thing I thought of. Reality set in, and maybe she didn’t meet some expectation of his.”
Nope, with the kind of weather that they were describing (20-foot seas and the Coast Guard had to turn back after 15 minutes...) — that tells you it was *bad* out there. They were foolish, not being more careful in that surf on the Oregon Coast. It’s dangerous and you are not supposed to turn your back to the surf — ever...
You said — “The Oregon coast is gnarly, I’m told, and that water is damned cold.”
Very much so. If you’re in that water, you’re not going to last more than a few minutes, because of hypothermia. You’re done for — on the Oregon Coast — in just minutes, if you’re in that water...
And it *is* gnarly out there on that coastline. It’s rough and the waves can get big and there are rogue waves... It’s dangerous out there on that coastline...
Your real name wouldn’t happen to be Scott Napper, would it? :-0
My dad told my brother, "Well, if the boat goes and we have to get in the water, you try for shore and don't worry about me because I won't make it, I'm too old. You're young and tough --" to which my brother promptly replied, "Sh*t, Pop, I'm damned near 50!"
Fortunately, God was merciful and my dad's and brother's seamanship was good enough, that they made it through. But yep -- the Oregon coast (I've never been north of Fort Bragg) I'm told is gnarly with a capital G.
But then again, a lot of these people who immediately think this looks suspicious, are the same who bought hook line and sinker the story about the guy fishing off a pier in Newport Beach who supposedly killed a sea lion with a steak knife! *sigh* Right. And I just flattened a Mack Truck with a Yugo!
You said — “Your real name wouldn’t happen to be Scott Napper, would it? :-0”
LOL..., nope. I just know the Oregon Coast way too well, having been too close to those waves and bad weather, a few times myself. I’ve read a lot about those rogue waves and there are a lot of shipwrecks along the coast, too. You’re told to be very, very careful, even on nice days...
People just don’t know that being from the Heartland, it seems (or even if they are on other coasts of the United States — like down in Galveston. Now, I don’t think you would ever see that down there. Those six-inch waves are not anything to worry about... :-)
well, i grew up in New England so i know cold and have seen the 4-10 foot waves (10 if there were storms offshore), but was never around rocky shorelines... and had only been on the Maine coastline a couple of times in the winter (fully dressed). the waves would pound, but i have never seen anything that would move someone 30 feet in a blink (time it takes to turn around)
just seems ... fishy (sorry for the pun)
This is what made me suspicious. If he really loved her, his first instinct would have been to pick her up out of the water. At 93 lb. that shouldn't have been a problem. He took the time to save his own skin, then took extra time to remove his jacket--probably to keep from losing the ring. It just seems fishy.
You said — “Fortunately, God was merciful and my dad’s and brother’s seamanship was good enough, that they made it through. But yep — the Oregon coast (I’ve never been north of Fort Bragg) I’m told is gnarly with a capital G.”
Yep, I think about the area around Yachats, Oregon (it’s pronounce “yaw-hots”...). They’ve got some flat rocks that go out into the ocean and on the ocean-side of those rocks there is a sort of barrier of rocks, before the waves come up on the flat table rock that you can stand on — further out into the ocean.
So, the waves rise up and they are higher than you are standing (i.e., “over your head” — and just about twenty feet in front of you — but — they *break* just in time, before they swamp you. So, it’s sort of a “dare” to be out there and that close to the breaking waves.
BUT, that could be really, really bad, because if there was a rogue wave, right there, that wave would “walk right over” that set of breaker rocks and wash you out, in an instant. So, at a certain point in the tide (when it is rising), you’ve got to get off those rocks in a hurry or be washed out to sea.
So, it’s sort of a “rush” to see that wave, over your head, and have it break right in a distance of twenty feet.
However, you’ve also got to watch the tide, when you’re doing that, because if it’s rising and you’re out there — all of a sudden one of those waves (a regular wave, this time and not a rogue wave) will crawl right over that breaker and *go for you* — and then you’re in a “world of trouble” in seconds... LOL...
That’s a place where you’ve got to have your eyes open *all the time* or you’re going to be dead in a few minutes...
This man should be booked for Murder by Tomorrow! and thrown out to sea from about 12 mies out to continue looking for his murder victim with the help of a few dozen hungry sharks!!! The Phillipine Goernment should demand his extridition to stand trial there. Let the murderer live in those prisons for awhile and he’ll wish he was the victim instead of her!
You said — “This is what made me suspicious. If he really loved her, his first instinct would have been to pick her up out of the water. At 93 lb. that shouldn’t have been a problem. He took the time to save his own skin, then took extra time to remove his jacket—probably to keep from losing the ring. It just seems fishy.”
Ummm..., 20-foot seas and the Oregon Coast Guard wouldn’t stay there more than 15 minutes — that’s bad...
You wouldn’t get me any further than the lower portion of my waist in water like that, and the bottom can slope away *real fast* in some spots (in a lot of spots, actually).
And..., you know..., if you were able to help someone else, you can’t help them when you’re floundering in the water being sucked out yourself.
If that’s a 3-foot wave that came in, that’s half the height of a six-foot guy. And *that* is as far as I would go and I’m six foot. I’m not going any further than half my height... LOL...
Furthermore, the *pull* of that water is pretty bad at just one foot. Two feet and it’s really pulling. Three foot and you’re in trouble — in a hurry, with that volume of water rushing back out to sea...
Nope, that guy would have had to stabilize himself first, or he would be flat down and tumbled in the surf and dragged out to the ocean...
It’s not fishy, if you’ve been on the Oregon Coast, and *especially* given that there were “20-foot seas” at that time. I don’t know why they were in the water with 20-foot seas, unless they were both just *plain ignorant* about the Oregon Coast...
You said — “This man should be booked for Murder by Tomorrow!”
Not in 20-foot seas and the Coast Guard refusing to stay any longer than 15 minutes for the search — because the weather was *that bad*.
After 15 minutes the person is dead anyway... They’ll probably never find the body.
So, is he a Local of the area? Probably is to know the rock is a place to propose.... How did the waves get from placid with a rogue 3 footer to twenty footers? I dont really care
about your experiences, but here in Maine off Blue Hill, We get a might of bad seas as well, but we dont let our murderers go free...p.s. the water is a might cold her as well.. but thats good, keeps our Lobsters healthy and blue :-)
Yes, there are waves here that certainly can and do disappear people in a blink ... it's the damndest thing. I find nothing "fishy" at all about this tragedy, especially seeing as how the gal was a tiny person, not a lot of lung-capacity flotation and probably totally inexperienced in rocky shores, the extremely turbulent waters such shores produce even in calm, and the very cold water which will paralyze you and knock the breath completely out of you at first dunk (been there, done that!! ;^).
Where I grew up had one of the ten most dangerous harbor entrances in the U.S. People often fished off of, or just walked along, the breakwaters (big piles of boulders to create a protected harbor mouth). They were braver than me, even though I'd played in pretty big beach waves since I was very small, learned to body surf, etc. The thing that would happen: even watching the surge, up against that breakwater you really couldn't predict with accuracy the timing of a surge and a wake would be such that it didn't result in a big breaker washing over the breakwater in big splashes ten or 15 feet high, and that's a lot of water. Believe me, it could move someone 30 feet in nothing flat. Made the ground shake, in fact.
You said — “a 3 foot wave?? you have got to be kidding. wasn’t he holding her hand?”
Yeah, a 3-foot wave (one of those rogue waves, above the normal waves) *definitely* could do it to you in a hurry. That’s why people lose their lives on the Oregon Coast if they’re not careful.
And remember, we’re talking about 20-foot seas and weather that was so bad that the Oregon Coast Guard wouldn’t stay there more than 15 minutes and had to return to base.
So, I’ll give you a scenario where you couldn’t do anything, in a situation like that. If you’re out there with someone, around that bigger rock, and watching the waves come in, you’re probably not standing in any depth of water, but just standing right outside where the last waves just came up to shore....
And then, all of a sudden a rogue wave comes in and it’s three-foot higher than where they’ve been coming in before. Now, three feet is half the height of a six foot guy. If I was standing there and got hit with a three foot wave, I would have to immediately try and brace myself because it’s going to be a hard hit and could easily knock me off my feet.
Next, the water is going to be rushing back out to sea from that wave and it *rushes* too — depending on the slope of the beach where you’re at. If it’s a one-foot wave (if, you’re in one foot of water), you can really feel that pull back out to the ocean. If it’s two feet, it’s really pulling and if you fall down, you could be pulled out. If it’s three feet — you’re definitely in trouble, if you don’t watch out. There’s a *big mass* of water pulling really hard on you — so much so that it can pull you right out to the ocean in a hurry.
If you’re *down* and scrambling to gain footing again, you’re not going to be helping anyone else. If you manage to maintain your footing, you can’t move in three feet of rushing water — but can barely maintain your balance, at that point. You can’t move anywhere..., or else you’ll stumble and fall and be washed out.
It’s very dangerous and especially so on that day.
The only time you’re going to “move” is once the water has gone out enough (from that three foot wave) that you can move around again — perhaps at a two-foot depth or less, at that point. But, even at two-feet, you’re going to have a hard time moving in that water, while it’s rushing out to the ocean.
It’s more likely that you can move around a bit more at one-foot depth of rushing water. And, by that time, the person can be gone and out that far away — without a doubt.
At my church a member of the youth group was lost at the beach and never found again. It didn’t take much for that young and strong guy (who was no wimp himself) to “lose it” in the ocean along the Oregon Coast.
If there is anything I could leave you with — in regards to that coast — it’s that it’s dangerous and you never turn your back on the ocean and you keep watching those waves and be ready to *run for it* — if you see a rogue wave coming... LOL...
he turned around only to see her 30 feet away and still moving? seriously? and why take your eyes off her? why not run in and take the jacket off while running?
I’ll fill you in on what’s happening here...
You said — “How did the waves get from placid with a rogue 3 footer to twenty footers?”
First of all, it wasn’t placid waters with 20-foot seas and the Coast Guard not able to stay more than 15 minutes. That’s a stormy day at the Coast, for sure.
Now, when you’re there, at the Coast, and it’s 20-foot seas, you’ve got a boundary where you see the waves are coming up... So, even in 20-foot seas, you can stand back, right at the spot where they’re coming.
So, that’s what they’re doing... standing at that spot... (I read that they were in just a little bit of water, so they were slightly in the water where the waves came to a stop).
Next, there’s a smallish rogue wave — it’s three foot higher than the 20-foot seas (which *really* in that kind of weather, that wouldn’t be too unexpected, actually).
So, you’re in a couple of inches of water and then — all of a sudden — you’re slammed with three-foot wall of water from that rogue wave that was three-foot higher than normal. That’s half the height of a six foot guy and could easily take him down and have him tumbling in the surf and dragged back out to the ocean. And *that* is probably what happened *immediately* with that smaller woman. She was knocked flat and tumbled in the surf and was dragged out to sea... just like that...
That’s how dangerous it is on the Oregon Coast, especially on a day like that...
I spent most of my youth on the Oregon coast. My grandparents had a place on the coast. I have been to every beach down there at one time or another. I still try to go down once or twice a year. ?The Oregon coast is my favorite place on this planet. It is beautiful beyond words, but it can be very deadly and merciless without warning.
My grandfather used to hold my hand when he took me on walks along the beach and tell me adventurous and wondrous stories. He taught me both love and respect for the ocean..... and to NEVER turn your back to her.
“Sneaker” waves happen more often than most people realize and if you don’t see them coming and if there is an undertow, there is little that a person can do.
Sad story about the poor gal, but I don’t see murder here, not with the facts as shown. Murder is something I am knowledgeable about and this just looks like the mighty ocean was collecting her taxes.
You and I completely agree.
Still suspicious here, thank you. So would either of you take the love of your life into such circumstances in DECEMBER, on a stormy day?
Yes, I’ve been around some of the rockiest, most treacherous coasts (including Oregon) on several continents and have worked as a deckhand on a 130 foot utility boat, so I have tremendous respect for the powers of the sea, waves, undertow currents, storms, etc., expecially in the part of the Oregon coast involved here.
This guy was from Silverton, Oregon, not too far from the coast. Maybe somehow he knew nothing about this nearby coastline, just how dangerous it can be, etc., or maybe he did understand the dangers; if he did know about these kinds of conditions then why would he take her there on a stormy day in December? I don’t know how long he had lived there, but presumably he had heard something of the dangers of that coastline. He was 45 years old. I know I was acutely aware of such dangers as a teenager and I didn’t grow up around anything like the Oregon coast.
SO, either he was blithely exposing his fiance to such dangers in DECEMBER (when the winter waters are going to be much colder than in summer when most of such “Proposal Rock” proposals are almost certainly made)..... or there is more to this story.
To take it at face value, he was merely incredibly reckless and/or ignorant about the safety of his 93 lb. fiance.
Does that sound like the behavior of someone who still cared about their future together?
Granted, love makes people do some reckless and foolish things. Maybe that’s all there is to the circumstances of this tragedy. But it sure does call out for some investigation, unless (as I said before) there are reliable witnesses who confirmed key details. But from the two articles I’ve seen so far, there was no witness to anything before he was (supposedly) trying to rescue her and no report that anyone else even saw here there that day. That’s part of what arouses my suspicions, thank you.
Just, Wow. You have obviously never had personal experience in the water on a rocky shore, or know what he even means by "turning into it" to keep from getting pulled under. Had the woman done the same, there's a chance she'd have just come back wet and cold and they'd be married. But most people don't know the trick of "turning into it." If he didn't have that woman already in his firm grip, there's not a damned thing he could have done, nada, zip, null, until the wave was headed back out -- and this isn't a lake, it's the ocean, and depending on the shoreline and tide, that receding wave has the force of a zillion aquatic cubic feet of displaced Pacific behind it. Those waves can sneak up on you fast. It's entirely believable this gal had no idea and that's why she was 30 feet away. It wouldn't have made any difference, however, even if she was only two feet away from him when it hit. I've been pretty surprised by waves before -- underestimated their force.
Running into full water on a nice, three-foot-wave tourist beach is hard enough; in these conditions, a rocky shore beach which may very well have had very rocky, coarse pebbles as opposed to the silky sand most people associate with a "beach" -- running into that receding vacuum is not easy, and this guy's instinct to pull his jacket off is his instinct for life -- he may as well have heedlessly leaped into the Grand Canyon had he left it on.
You act like it's an easy thing, reaching, grabbing, and hauling out 93 pounds of person 30 feet away who's being sucked out by the force of gazillions of cubic feet of moving water, an enormous displacement that you can't even imagine unless you've been IN the water under water and felt its swell -- just, Wow.
He took the time to save his own skin, then took extra time to remove his jacket--probably to keep from losing the ring. It just seems fishy.
Again, just wow. You're like the old ladies in the town where I grew up who wanted to pass a city ordinance requiring the surfers to wear lifejackets. They didn't get or even credit the surfers' intelligence had just maybe already given it some thought ... that a) the wetsuits make you float and b) the ridiculous, heavy, cumbersome jacket would hugely endanger the surfers' safety, balance, flotation, and maneuverability, including the ability to flip under waves to keep from being mashed by them.
In other words, if you haven't experienced coastal seas, maybe you don't know what you're talking about and should reserve judgement on this guy -- I sure wouldn't want you to pass judgement on me in such a case. Just, wow.
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