Posted on 03/08/2005 12:42:07 PM PST by Destro
So is this Red Army Chinese PR?
Suddenly, the picture becomes clearer... ;)
I'm sure that the Chinese built such ships, but many probably disappeared without a trace, much like ships of the Spanish Treasure Fleets. A FEW such ships sailing during periods of fair weather & with luck, may have made the round-trip. But with the odds stacked against such Magellanic voyages, how could the Chinese have considered such urban development on the far side of the globe economically feasible?
I just don't see the Chinese navigators going around the Cape of Good Hope & back sufficient times to warrant a city of the proportions described on the Eastern Seaboard. The Norse were much closer and they never managed more than a few logging/farming outposts (so far as we know).
Finally, China's period as a seafaring nation was historically very brief. I think that there is ample evidence to suggest that they explored the west coast from Puget Sound all the way down to South America. I'm sure that there were contacts with the civilizations of Central & South America. Perhaps they even constructed smaller ships in the Gulf of Mexico & reconnoitered the Caribbean. But that is still a far cry from massive fleets of large sailing vessels roving the Atlantic.
As I said, I'm skeptical. Show me a 300ft long, 700 year old junk off Nova Scotia.
Feral hogs suvive and multiply very well here and almost any settlers would have brought them and raised them. If there were any significant settlement, some would have escaped to the wild as they did once the Spanish arived.
No hogs before the Spanish, no settlements.
SO9
I'm not disputing Feng He's voyages, per se. I AM disputing the premature association of this archealogical site with his voyages, or with the Khan's Chinese Empire. There isn't enough evidence to support the hypothesis, and this former naval officer turned archeologist seems to be leaping to conclusions.
Ask yourself this question: If the Khan's fleets made it to Nova Scotia in sufficient 'strength' to build such a city, they why weren't they 'observed' cruising the medieval European coastline? It ain't that much further if we assume that this city is for real & chinese naval technology was THAT good. That's all I'm saying...
I saw the show on Discovery. As I recall it, while the part about the voyages to other parts of Asia, Africa and Arabia had some pretty good evidence, the Menzies theory about the Atlantic voyages was pretty thin gruel.
There seems to have been an extensive network of settlments that were wiped out by European origin deseases - ( maybe now Chinese origin plagues? ) before White men set foot on the Amazon.
The proper and boring position is to be skeptical. The fun part of all this is in the speculating!
It does go down to a passageway of sorts, but probably not a root cellar. It's hard to see much structure, probably the best stones were taken long ago.
From Publishers Weekly Levathes, a former staff writer for National Geographic , here tells the story of seven epic voyages made by unique junk armadas during the reign of the Chinese emperor Zhu Di. These "treasure ships" under the command of the eunuch admiral Zheng He traded in porcelain, silk, lacquerware and fine-art objects; they sailed from Korea and Japan throughout the Malay archipelago and India to East Africa, and possibly as far away as Australia. Levathes argues that China could have employed its navy--with some 3000 vessels, the largest in history until the present century--to establish a great colonial empire 100 years before the age of European exploration and expansion; instead, the Chinese abruptly dismantled their navy. Levathes describes the political showdown that led to this perverse turn of events, revolving around a clash between the powerful eunuch class and Confucian scholar-officials. Her scholarly study includes a section on the construction of the seagoing junks (the largest had nine masts, was 400 feet long and would have dwarfed Columbus's ships) and provides a look into court life in the Ming dynasty, particularly the relationship between the emperor, his eunuch and his concubines. Illustrated. Copyright 1994 Reed Business Information, Inc.--This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.
Gavin Menzies claims that the gigantic imperial fleet commanded by Admiral Zheng He was the first to visit the Americas and the first to circumnavigate the globe. His book has engendered a fair amount of controversy, in no small part to the lack of physical or documentary evidence supporting Menzies' claims.
We have all encountered our fair share of TV productions that discuss off-beat or unconventional theories (Atlantis, UFOs, Noah's Ark, etc. etc. etc.) that credulously present the theory in question without offering any critical analysis. The result of these pseudoscientific "documentaries" is that we are told that the only plausible explanation for various tidbits of evidence can only be the particular off-beat theory in question. Rarely, if ever, are critics or mainstream scholars given a chance to rebut the theory.
Such is not the case with this program, which is basically divided into three parts. The first part is a basic history of the known voyages of Zheng He, which went as far as East Africa, making contact in Malaya, India, Arabia, among other lands. The program is valuable just for this alone, since most of us have never heard of Zheng He and tend to have a rather Eurocentric view of world exploration. The second portion gives Gavin Menzies the floor, where he puts forth his theory that Zheng went beyond the Cape, made numerous contacts in the Americas, and the Caribbean, and then completed the circumnavigation of the globe (although this aspect is barely discussed in the program). Menzies picks out the odd tidbit (a map here, a mysterious mound there, a possible European link with China as evidenced by a non-Chinese statue) to bolster his argument.
Most programs would have left it at that, and for that matter, most authors like Menzies would have consented only to present their side of the argument rather than get into a scholarly debate. However, the third part of the program allows all of Menzie's critics to open up broadsides on his theory, and they blast away with great vigor. I have to give Menzies credit for consenting to sit down on camera and admit that he has no evidence to rebut a number of his critics' arguments. Sometimes he admits, with great discomfort, that he simply doesn't know enough about a particular field to be able to discuss it. Not everybody would be willing to do that. He tenaciously defends his contentions, but at least does not dismiss the criticism out of hand.
Meanwhile, Menzies' critics have a field day with him, and one is left with the distinct impression, when all is said and done, that even though Zheng's fleet probably could have made it to the Americas (and maybe around the world) there simply is nothing in historical record to suggest that this ever happened, and there really isn't much circumstantial evidence to support Menzies' claim either. Of course, this assumes that the viewer has stuck it out through all of the scholarly thrusts & parries. All in all, I was pleased to see a production that wasn't hopelessly slanted one way or the other. Well done.
I've seen estimates of 50 million people for the Amazon Basin alone.
Good points. It may have been plundered a bit. OTOH, much of the original work appears to have been devoted to the maze-like "fences" that circle the hill.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.