SHROUD OF TURIN - SKEPTICAL INQUIRER - NO BULL FACTS

http://www.skepticalspectacle.com/ ^ | February 2005 | Daniel Porter

[Semaphore Heathcliffe]

The only possible conclusion is that the Oviedo sudarium covered the same face as the Turin Shroud.

This stuff is so cool!

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

Thanks. Pinged, and really appreciated the ping!

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

It's truly amazing when you realize that the Sudarium is where it is, and the Shroud is guarded where it is. All the scientific facts, the blood stains placement on the body, the pollens coming from the same geographical area's (yet the Sudarium is now in Spain), all add up to them being from the same body.

When I first started researching, after seeing "The Passion of the Christ" to investigate the amount of wounds to Christ body. I found out then about the Sudarium. I was shocked and humbled, but ecstatic to find out about the Sudarium. We've been so thrilled to get all of this information! I found out about all of it here at FR from Swordmaker and his links!

We knew about the shroud, but the evidence was not "out there" in abundance on television. Thanks to Dr. Barry Schwartz and now all these other sites, we are finding out the truth. Someone sure doesn't want all of us to know.. and I'm guessing who that someone "is". For now, he has dominion over the earth.

Swordmaker and all the other fine people who keep up on this, are doing a fantastic job of keeping us up on the Shroud and the Sudarium and all the latest SCIENTIFIC information here on FR. I love the updates. I can't think of any other way I'd be kept informed. And believe me, I want to be kept informed. So we are so grateful for his work.

I've spent HOURS and HOURS reading and even writing an email myself with links on this, that I sent out to my family after the movie. I (we) have no doubt at all that the Shroud and the Sudarium once covered our Lord.

FRegards and..."God Bless", VH&W

[Semaphore Heathcliffe]

It's absolutely fascinating, no doubt. The shroud has been a minor interest of mine since grade school, but I pretty much wrote it off after the carbon-14 tests. THEN I found Shroudie on FR last year, which led to a link about the Sudarium. The Sudarium blows it wide open, as you well know. Then, in the most recent flurry of shroud threads, Aquinasfan produced this gem for further consideration. This brings the total to three artifacts clearly associated with Christ which have AB blood type. The cross-referencing is looking more like corraboration all the time.

[<1/1,000,000th%]

This site has several obscure references, both pro and con, concerning the Shroud of Turin.

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

This is fascinating. Plus, they should be able to do DNA on all these samples and if they are "connected" and belong to the same person, they should match. I don't think there is a "time limit" on DNA.

Someone here will correct me (I'm sure) If I'm wrong. :o)

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

I assure you, the "con" has been disproved a thousand times over. Please, go to the sites mentioned. It will take you a few "days" (full days) to read all the "SCIENTIFIC evidence". But it will be worth it. You will never believe the naysayers again.

FRegards, VH&W

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

correction: "con's"

[Swordmaker]

This site has several obscure references, both pro and con, concerning the Shroud of Turin.

That site is maintained by my and Shroudie's friend, Barrie Schworz, who was the visible light photographer for the Shroud of Turin Project (STURP. 1978). You will find my high opinion of Barrie's site in a post above.

[Swordmaker]

This is fascinating. Plus, they should be able to do DNA on all these samples and if they are "connected" and belong to the same person, they should match. I don't think there is a "time limit" on DNA.

While some scientists have detected blood fractions and determined them to be of the AB type, others have not. In fact some claim that while it is blood, typing blood that is so old is not too useful. Others claim that ALL blood that is this old will type to AB.

As to the DNA. Not a chance. The DNA is far too degraded and contaminated (with other DNA from everyone who has been in the Shroud's presence throughout history) for anyone to be able to sequence or do a comparison with other degraded and contaminated blood from the Sudarion.

[Bellflower]

You need to take it up with the LORD. It is he that allowed the shroud to remain for good reasons, I am sure.

[<1/1,000,000th%]

The historical references are fascinating. These are some of the other relics that Robert of Clari wrote about after his visit to Constantinople during the 4th crusade:

Within this chapel were found many precious relics; for therein were found two pieces of the True Cross, as thick as a man's leg and a fathom in length. And there was found the lance wherewith Our Lord had His side pierced, and the two nails that were driven through the midst of His hands and through the midst of His feet.

And there was also found, in a crystal phial, a great part of His blood. And there was found the tunic that he wore, which was stripped from Him when He had been led to the Mount of Calvary. And there, too, was found the blessed crown wherewith He was crowned, which was wrought of sea rushes, sharp as dagger blades.

There also was found the raiment of Our Lady, and the head of my Lord Saint John Baptist, and so many other precious relics that I could never describe them to you or tell you the truth concerning them.

Makes you wonder what happened to the Baptist's head.

[<1/1,000,000th%]

Another refernece from a Templar site where the Shroud is referred to as the Mandylion.

In 944 AD a Byzantine army besieged Moslem occupied Edessa. The Christian general offered the city's Moslem Emir a huge sum of money, the freeing of 200 Moslem captives and the promise of perpetual immunity for just one thing... the Mandylion. After considerable haggling the Emir agreed and so the Mandylion was taken to Constantinople where it remained for two and a half centuries as the most sacred object in the imperial collection of relics.

[<1/1,000,000th%]

Then there's this site that talks about the Shroud of Oviedo and it's relationship to the Shroud of Turin.

[elbucko]

You need to take it up with the LORD

I did. He wanted to know if these folks were worshiping Him, or the "shroud"?

[Semaphore Heathcliffe]

He wanted to know if these folks were worshiping Him, or the "shroud"?

Did He specify which folks He was referring to?

[elbucko]

Did He specify which folks He was referring to?

Yes. Those "folks" were the persons that spent more time concerned with the authenticity of the shroud, than they did with the quality of their relationship with Him.

[Semaphore Heathcliffe]

Interesting. On all the threads I've read on the shroud, no one has made the slightest hint that they were more concerned with the shroud than with their faith. He must have been talking about people outside FR.

[elbucko]

He must have been talking about people outside FR.

He must've been.

[shroudie]

I've been involved heavily with the Shroud of Turin for several years. I have lectured, corresponded with people, posted in FR, participated actively in discussions with about 80 researchers including Ray Rogers, Fanti, Dreisbach, Scavone, Wilson, Brown, Schwortz. I have yet to meet one person or hear of anyone who "worshipped" the Shroud.

Dan