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To: BroJoeK

“Your 17% number is nonsense.”

It’s the official number.

The US is different. In the US, if someone says they are Irish or Italian, it means they had a very distant relative from hundreds of years ago who migrated and didn’t even keep their own culture but became an American. In Ukraine, ethnic Russians do not share the same culture as their fellow citizens. There was a balance that was maintained to prevent discord and that balance has been disrupted.

Your views on citizenship and loyalty to the state are not universal. People have differing views elsewhere. Once people become US citizens, they have a high incentive to remain citizens due to the high standard of living and personal freedoms afforded to them. They won’t risk that. That situation does not exist in many other countries. Therefore people don’t always feel the state is their friend and worthy of blind loyalty.

As I’ve tried to point out, there is a long history of conflicts breaking out in post empire countries with mixed cultures and nationalities. This is nothing new. The conflict we have is predictable. Ethnic Russians were targeted and attacked both militarily and in terms of state approved discrimination after 2014. Both sides knew a conflict was inevitable. Ukraine and their European allies admitted they had no intention of honouring the Minsk agreement. Instead they prepared for war.

What’s clear is that you can’t even put yourself in the shoes of other people and your outlook is too limited to realise that others don’t think like you.

“I have never heard a Hungarian complain that they should now, in 2023, have the right to rule over the people who were freed from their rule in 1919.”

Yet another over simplification on your part. You need to talk to people from other cultures more and learn more about history than what you claim to know.

“Right, because, more often than not, that’s exactly what’s happening, for example, when Serbs attempted to conquer land inhabited mainly by Albanians.”

Albanians never existed as a state before the 20th century. They expanded into Serbia, increased their population and borders and demanded a potion of Serbia be gifted to them.
Your views on the right of self determination of Albanians and ethnic Russians are contradictory and hypocritical by the way.


133 posted on 02/03/2023 5:27:06 AM PST by winslow
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 132 | View Replies ]


To: winslow
winslow: "The US is different.
In the US, if someone says they are Irish or Italian, it means they had a very distant relative from hundreds of years ago who migrated and didn’t even keep their own culture but became an American.
In Ukraine, ethnic Russians do not share the same culture as their fellow citizens."

Those are total lies because the laws of citizenship are basically the same everywhere, namely, you cannot wage war against your own country without being treated as the treasonous traitor you are, with police and military force.
That is inescapable, regardless of whatever mental gymnastics you pirouette and triple lutz to land on, you cannot wage war against you own country, period.

winslow: "There was a balance that was maintained to prevent discord and that balance has been disrupted."

That "balance" was maintained through corruption, intimidation and rigged elections putting Putin's allies in charge of Ukraine.
In 2014 the Ukrainian "Revolution of Dignity" overthrew all that and elected pro-Ukrainian Ukrainians.
So Vlad the Invader immediately invaded and declared Crimea annexed, eventually Donetsk and Luhansk also.
It was a pure power-grab and empire building by Vlad, nothing else.

winslow: "Your views on citizenship and loyalty to the state are not universal.
People have differing views elsewhere.
Once people become US citizens, they have a high incentive to remain citizens due to the high standard of living and personal freedoms afforded to them.
They won’t risk that.
That situation does not exist in many other countries.
Therefore people don’t always feel the state is their friend and worthy of blind loyalty."

All that is totally 100% irrelevant.
What matters in not how citizens feeeeeeeeeeel, what matters is the laws in every country, rich or poor, free or enslaved, the laws in every country prevent citizens from arbitrarily declaring their own independence and then waging war against their own country.
Any suggestion otherwise is pure insanity.
Citizens who don't like their country, who loathe and despise their own governments, who hate their fellow citizens, in nearly every country such people are free to leave and find another country more to their liking.

winslow: "Ethnic Russians were targeted and attacked both militarily and in terms of state approved discrimination after 2014."

There were no police or military actions against Russians in Ukraine before 2014, zero, nada, none, zip, zilch, because Russians ruled over Ukraine.
In 2014 that changed, but still there were no police or military actions against Russians specifically, there was only one, count them, one series of events, the Euromaiden Riots which resulted in deaths on both sides.
And the issue was never Russians versus Ukrainians, but rather government policies towards the EU and Russia.

Vlad the Invader used Ukraine's riots as his excuse to invade Ukraine and now basic citizenship laws required every Ukrainian to defend against foreign invaders.
Those who joined the invaders were treasonous and could be treated as traitors.

That's the whole story, in a nutshell.

winslow: "Ukraine and their European allies admitted they had no intention of honouring the Minsk agreement.
Instead they prepared for war."

The Minsk agreements were nothing more than cease-fire arrangements after Russia's first invasion of Ukraine.
They were never fully implemented, but also never fully ignored until Vlad the Invader declared them abolished in February 2022.

Today, any nation which is not preparing for war against Russia is inviting national suicide.
No sane person could ignore the clear and present danger from Vlad the Invader.

winslow: "What’s clear is that you can’t even put yourself in the shoes of other people and your outlook is too limited to realise that others don’t think like you."

It's irrelevant what they think or feeeeeeeeeel.
What matters is, are they waging war against their own country?
If so, then they can expect a full police and military response.

winslow: "Albanians never existed as a state before the 20th century.
They expanded into Serbia, increased their population and borders and demanded a potion of Serbia be gifted to them.
Your views on the right of self determination of Albanians and ethnic Russians are contradictory and hypocritical by the way."

No, not at all.
The breakup of Yugoslavia turned Serbs into beasts, orcs, like Russians, who murdered and raped their way into power over subject peoples.
No humans could be required to live under such monsters.
In Ukraine the situation was 100% the opposite, Russians there ruled Ukraine before 2014, they were the privileged class and enforced Ukraine's laws favoring Russia.
When that was overturned in 2014, there was no sudden assault on Russians in Ukraine, there were only a series of riots over Ukraine's policies toward Europe, in which people on both sides were killed or injured.

That was the excuse Vlad the Invader used to invade Ukraine, and the rest is just Russian propaganda BS.

134 posted on 02/04/2023 7:40:40 AM PST by BroJoeK (future DDG 134 -- we remember)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 133 | View Replies ]

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