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To: BroJoeK
I wrote:
"It out and out says virtually all the contracts and shipping were controlled from New York. Do I need to hunt it up for you, or can you find it from what I have told you? It is the link about the flat bottom boats. Look it up."

You responded:

No link of mine discussed "flat bottom boats" or shipping controlled from New York.

This picture from one of your posts doesn't ring a bell?


This is one of those "flat bottomed boats" which you mentioned.

You'll have to find that one yourself, and when you do, I'll explain how you got it all wrong.

Well here's your chance. I believe this is the post to which I was referring.

This is what it said in the link you provided in that post. (See, I do sometimes read what you write and the links you provide.)

The July 4, 1789, tariff was the first substantive legislation passed by the new American government. But in addition to the new duties, it reduced by 10 percent or more the tariff paid for goods arriving in American craft. It also required domestic construction for American ship registry. Navigation acts in the same decade stipulated that foreign-built and foreign-owned vessels were taxed 50 cents per ton when entering U.S. ports, while U.S.-built and -owned ones paid only six cents per ton. Furthermore, the U.S. ones paid annually, while foreign ones paid upon every entry.

This effectively blocked off U.S. coastal trade to all but vessels built and owned in the United States. The navigation act of 1817 made it official, providing "that no goods, wares, or merchandise shall be imported under penalty of forfeiture thereof, from one port in the United States to another port in the United States, in a vessel belonging wholly or in part to a subject of any foreign power."

The point of all this was to protect and grow the shipping industry of New England, and it worked. By 1795, the combination of foreign complication and American protection put 92 percent of all imports and 86 percent of all exports in American-flag vessels.American shipowners' annual earnings shot up between 1790 and 1807, from $5.9 million to $42.1 million.

New England shipping took a severe hit during the War of 1812 and the embargo. After the war ended, the British flooded America with manufactured goods to try to drive out the nascent American industries. They chose the port of New York for their dumping ground, in part because the British had been feeding cargoes to Boston all through the war to encourage anti-war sentiment in New England. New York was the more starved, therefore it became the port of choice. And the dumping bankrupted many towns, but it assured New York of its sea-trading supremacy. In the decades to come. New Yorkers made the most of the chance.

Four Northern and Mid-Atlantic ports still had the lion's share of the shipping. But Boston and Baltimore mainly served regional markets (though Boston sucked up a lot of Southern cotton and shipped out a lot of fish). Philadelphia's shipping interest had built up trade with the major seaports on the Atlantic and Gulf coasts, especially as Pennsylvania's coal regions opened up in the 1820s. But New York was king. Its merchants had the ready money, it had a superior harbor, it kept freight rates down, and by 1825 some 4,000 coastal trade vessels per year arrived there. In 1828 it was estimated that the clearances from New York to ports on the Delaware Bay alone were 16,508 tons, and to the Chesapeake Bay 51,000 tons.

Early and mid-19th century Atlantic trade was based on "packet lines" -- groups of vessels offering scheduled services. It was a coastal trade at first, but when the Black Ball Line started running between New York and Liverpool in 1817, it became the way to do business across the pond.

The trick was to have a good cargo going each way. The New York packet lines succeeded because they sucked in all the eastbound cotton cargoes from the U.S. The northeast didn't have enough volume of paying freight on its own. So American vessels, usually owned in the Northeast, sailed off to a cotton port, carrying goods for the southern market. There they loaded cotton (or occasionally naval stores or timber) for Europe. They steamed back from Europe loaded with manufactured goods, raw materials like hemp or coal, and occasionally immigrants.

Since this "triangle trade" involved a domestic leg, foreign vessels were excluded from it (under the 1817 law), except a few English ones that could substitute a Canadian port for a Northern U.S. one. And since it was subsidized by the U.S. government, it was going to continue to be the only game in town.

Robert Greenhalgh Albion, in his laudatory history of the Port of New York, openly boasts of this selfish monopoly. "By creating a three-cornered trade in the 'cotton triangle,' New York dragged the commerce between the southern ports and Europe out of its normal course some two hundred miles to collect a heavy toll upon it. This trade might perfectly well have taken the form of direct shuttles between Charleston, Savannah, Mobile, or New Orleans on the one hand and Liverpool or Havre on the other, leaving New York far to one side had it not interfered in this way. To clinch this abnormal arrangement, moreover, New York developed the coastal packet lines without which it would have been extremely difficult to make the east-bound trips of the ocean packets profitable."[2]

Even when the Southern cotton bound for Europe didn't put in at the wharves of Sandy Hook or the East River, unloading and reloading, the combined income from interests, commissions, freight, insurance, and other profits took perhaps 40 cents into New York of every dollar paid for southern cotton.

The record shows that ports with moderate quantities of outbound freight couldn't keep up with the New York competition. Remember, this is a triangle trade. Boston started a packet line in 1833 that, to secure outbound cargo, detoured to Charleston for cotton. But about the only other local commodity it could find to move to Europe was Bostonians. Since most passengers en route to England found little attraction in a layover in South Carolina, the lines failed.[3]

As for the cotton ports themselves, they did not crave enough imports to justify packet lines until 1851, when New Orleans hosted one sailing to Liverpool. Yet New York by the mid-1850s could claim sixteen lines to Liverpool, three to London, three to Havre, two to Antwerp, and one each to Glasgow, Rotterdam, and Marseilles. Subsidized, it must be remembered, by the federal post office patronage boondogle.

U.S. foreign trade rose in value from $134 million in 1830 to $318 million in 1850. It would triple again in the 1850s. Between two-thirds and three-fourths of those imports entered through the port of New York. Which meant that any trading the South did, had to go through New York. Trade from Charleston and Savannah during this period was stagnant. The total shipping entered from foriegn countries in 1851 in the port of Charleston was 92,000 tons, in the port of New York, 1,448,000. You'd find relatively little tariff money coming in from Charleston. According to a Treasury report, the net revenue of all the ports of South Carolina during 1859 was a mere $234,237; during 1860 it was $309,222.[4]

We noticed.

The war was launched against the South to get back that money. Not to free slaves, not because they gave a D@mn about a stupid fort they had no use for whatsoever, but because of MONEY!

254 posted on 11/26/2016 12:57:29 PM PST by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: DiogenesLamp; WarIsHellAintItYall; PeaRidge; rockrr
DiogenesLamp: "Well here's your chance.
I believe this is the post to which I was referring."

And my post there effectively refutes the article's many false claims.

DiogenesLamp: "This is one of those 'flat bottomed boats' which you mentioned."

Here you are just confused.
In fact, no post of mine used the words "flat bottom", but posts by WarIsHellAintItYall and PeaRidge did discuss that subject.

My posting the SS Planter photo -- built, owned & operated by Southerners -- proves your claims about "Northeastern dominance" are, well, exaggerated:

DiogenesLamp: "This is what it said in the link you provided in that post. (See, I do sometimes read what you write and the links you provide.)"

But of course, you didn't read what I posted, because that would violate your terms as a dedicated pro-Confederate propagandist.
What I posted refuted your pro-Confederate arguments in the link I posted.
So, being DiogenesLamp, you did what DiogenesLamp does: you ignored my counter-arguments and reposted the link's arguments just as if they were facts.

DiogenesLamp quoting the link: "The trick was to have a good cargo going each way.
The New York packet lines succeeded because they sucked in all the eastbound cotton cargoes from the U.S.
The northeast didn't have enough volume of paying freight on its own.
So American vessels, usually owned in the Northeast, sailed off to a cotton port, carrying goods for the southern market.
There they loaded cotton (or occasionally naval stores or timber) for Europe.
They steamed back from Europe loaded with manufactured goods, raw materials like hemp or coal, and occasionally immigrants."

In this one paragraph alone are several misstatements of fact:

  1. New York, or indeed all Northeastern ports combined, did not carry "all the eastbound cotton", but only 20%, at most.
    The balance, 80%, shipped directly from Gulf Coast ports like New Orleans to their European customers.

  2. Return trips from Europe did often stop in New York, where they paid tariffs on whatever goods they imported, and there were two chief reasons:
    • 80% of US customers for European imports lived outside the Deep South, and New York was the most direct route to reach those customers.

    • Your link says "occasional immigrants" also came aboard returning ships, but in fact millions of immigrants arrived in New York aboard those ships, and it was a major source of income for them.
      Those immigrants wanted to land in New York where there were abundant jobs & housing for them, not in Charleston, SC, which had neither, and was unhealthy to boot.

DiogenesLamp quoting the link: "But New York was king."

More like "first among equals" on imports, not at all on exports.

DiogenesLamp quoting the link: "Since this "triangle trade" involved a domestic leg, foreign vessels were excluded from it (under the 1817 law)...
And since it was subsidized by the U.S. government, it was going to continue to be the only game in town."

Such "subsidies" applied to any US shipper, regardless of where they lived.
Nothing prevented Southerners from building, owning & operating their own ships, as indeed the photo shows they did do.

DiogenesLamp quoting the link: "New York dragged the commerce between the southern ports and Europe out of its normal course some two hundred miles to collect a heavy toll upon it.
This trade might perfectly well have taken the form of direct shuttles between Charleston, Savannah, Mobile, or New Orleans on the one hand and Liverpool or Havre on the other, leaving New York far to one side had it not interfered in this way."

But the facts say differently.
As this link points out, half of all US cotton shipped from New Orleans alone, not New York.
Further, more than half of the remaining cotton shipped from other Gulf Coast ports, from Texas to Florida, because that's where the cotton was produced.
These cotton exports moved on hundreds of ocean-going ships, any of which could have been built, owned and operated by Southerners.

DiogenesLamp quoting the link: "Even when the Southern cotton bound for Europe didn't put in at the wharves of Sandy Hook or the East River, unloading and reloading, the combined income from interests, commissions, freight, insurance, and other profits took perhaps 40 cents into New York of every dollar paid for southern cotton."

And 80% did not put in at New York.
So the alleged "40%" in transportation costs was earned by whoever cotton producers chose to carry their freight.

DiogenesLamp quoting the link: "As for the cotton ports themselves, they did not crave enough imports to justify packet lines until 1851, when New Orleans hosted one sailing to Liverpool.
Yet New York by the mid-1850s could claim sixteen lines to Liverpool, three to London, three to Havre, two to Antwerp, and one each to Glasgow, Rotterdam, and Marseilles.
Subsidized, it must be remembered, by the federal post office patronage boondogle."

The fact is that half of US cotton exported from New Orleans alone, and much of the rest from other Gulf Coast ports, not New York.
Imports did return through New York, because that is where customers and paying jobs for immigrants could most easily be found.
In other words: it was NY-bound immigrants and Northern import customers which subsidized cotton shipped from the Deep South, not the other way around.

DiogenesLamp quoting the link: "Which meant that any trading the South did, had to go through New York. Trade from Charleston and Savannah during this period was stagnant.
The total shipping entered from foriegn countries in 1851 in the port of Charleston was 92,000 tons, in the port of New York, 1,448,000.
You'd find relatively little tariff money coming in from Charleston."

Imports and immigrants landed where customers and jobs were, mainly New York.
That's because 80% of US citizens in 1860 lived outside the Deep Cotton South states and New York was the easiest way to reach them.

DiogenesLamp quoting the link: "According to a Treasury report, the net revenue of all the ports of South Carolina during 1859 was a mere $234,237; during 1860 it was $309,222.[4]"

Which corresponds to the relative value of South Carolina exports.
The fact is South Carolina was a small state with relatively little to offer the world.

DiogenesLamp: "The war was launched against the South to get back that money.
Not to free slaves, not because they gave a D@mn about a stupid fort they had no use for whatsoever, but because of MONEY!"

FRiend, just because you were indoctrinated in Marxist economic dialectics and so are blind to reality, doesn't mean there's nothing more to it.
Of course there is.
Indeed, no actual participants in 1861 mentioned any of your analysis as reasons for their actions.
All gave other reasons, from protecting slavery to defending the constitution.
That's because economics alone is not justification for war.
But responding to violent rebellion was, and remains, a valid reason for Federal military actions.

265 posted on 11/26/2016 7:49:01 PM PST by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective...)
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