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To: w1n1

As I recall the U.S. went to the .45 when they realized that the .38 was ineffective against drugged up Moros.


7 posted on 02/05/2015 10:05:12 AM PST by Mastador1 (I'll take a bad dog over a good politician any day!)
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To: Mastador1
As I recall the U.S. went to the .45 when they realized that the .38 was ineffective against drugged up Moros.

Yes, as the article says. But that was going from a five-shot .39-Special-equivalent (called .38 Long Colt at the time) to an 8-shot .45 ACP. That's a win-win for the new pistol.

It's not so obvious when the choice is 8 rounds of .45 ACP or 16 rounds of 9mm. Where 5 shots of .38-special won't stop a 'drugged up Moro', 15 would be more . . . discouraging.

Actually, the last time around the politics were more important than ballistics anyway. This was at the time of a lot of 'two-way street' ranting where the Euros were upset that they were buying so much US military hardware and we weren't buying any Euro hardware. So the deal was made that the US would replace the 1911 / 1911A1 with a European 9mm design. The only question was which one. Sig won the competition technically but lost on cost to the Beretta (which is why the SEALS and other special operators use Sig P226, and the generals are issued Sig 228s).

I'm a big believer in the Evans and Sarnow data, which show a negligible difference in 'one-shot stops' between 9mm and .45ACP in actual gunfight data. However, those data are based on expanding ammunition. Both make a much bigger hole than .45 with expanding bullets, and the 9mm has more muzzle energy.

However, the military is not allowed to use expanding bullets. For that reason, a bigger, slower bullet is a better answer. Lots of muzzle energy expending on the far scenery doesn't help, so something like .357 Sig doesn't seem like a good idea as it will overpenetrate with ball ammunition. The only counter to this would be if there is a perceived need to penetrate something before entering the body. At pistol ranges, you may be able to develop a .357Sig bullet that would penetrate most personal armor. It would still overpenetrate on unarmored targets, but that might be a legitimate tradeoff.

I'm glad to see the competition, but for civilian use I'll stay with a 9mm and good ammunition.
11 posted on 02/05/2015 10:25:25 AM PST by Phlyer
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To: Mastador1

The .45 ACP was specifically designed to put down Juramentados.

If a 9MM is what they want you still can’t beat the Browning Hi-Power.


12 posted on 02/05/2015 10:28:12 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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