Posted on 09/14/2014 11:17:43 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
Where is the automobile headed in our gradually warming world? Fully electric like the Chevy Spark, Nissan Leaf, or Mercedes SLS AMG Electric Drive? Plug-in hybrid like the Chevy Volt, Ford Energi models, or Porsche 918? Flying cars like the Terrafugia Transition? Something else entirely? One thing's for sure: Wherever it's headed, folks buying at the pointy end of the price pyramid will get there first and help field-test the tech for the rest of us. If you have both the means and the inclination to live your automotive life on the green-tech bleeding edge -- or if you need the world to think that's how you roll—allow us to present the two most compelling options available today.
The reigning green-car champ is the surprisingly high-performance, fully electric Tesla Model S P85+. The car world's lone successful Silicon Valley startup earned Motor Trend's 2013 Car of the Year calipers on the strength of its M5-like driving dynamics, giant iPad-esque user interface, innovative optional 5+2 seating, front and rear trunks, and epic 265-mile EPA-rated battery range. And during the year we've spent driving a long-term Model S, the expanding network of Superchargers has made long-distance electric travel (at least in our bottom half of California) a surprising reality....
(Excerpt) Read more at motortrend.com ...
That may become a thing of the past, with recent proposals to tax cars by mileage.
Somewhere there is a SoCal quack psychologist who is already teeing-up his/her diagnosis of "RechargeRage". This quack wants to be the pioneer for documenting in the DSM when the greenie-fascists start having to actually wait in a line...
Don’t look so smug: Your Tesla might be worse for the environment than a gas car
Smugly citing the lack of coal power plants in SoCal paints you a certain color from more than one point of view.
Furthermore, I never saw it posted here, but here's the rest of the Tesla road-test story after Musk & Tesla's round of propaganda poo-pooing the lousy results that made national media. While the Tesla owners manual warns users about battery damage resulting from draining the battery to 25-0%, it omits mention at all of the damage done to the battery from repeated use of 'quick-charging stations' (that tidbit is rechargeable-battery 101; even Musk can't change physics & chemistry). This story scratches the surface, but mostly exposes the diversion used by Tesla to avoid talking about what will be reported more & more as Tesla users make frequent use of quick-charging stations.
If the government would just release Lithium 6 as a free-market element, this discussion would be completely moot, as hydrogen would replace EVs overnight. I don't dispute that the Tesla is a nice engineering feat all-around; what I dispute is a champion of liberal business model (subsidies) and climate change/global warming being touted in typical liberal/propagandistic fashion (whitewashing for whatever personal bias you have) in a Conservative forum such as FR without being open/honest about the dark side(s) of it.
I barely had the time to write this; I could go on, but neither do I have the time nor the emotional bias to motivate me. Notably, referring to emotional bias: The reality posed by Tesla's stock price and the very real threat to its entire business model by Chinese manufacturers paints a dark picture for Tesla's, and EVs in general made elsewhere, future.
I concur with you on Russia/China, but ignoring certain realities to promote a product...well...
...I don't wear a skirt, but you Tesla proponents (Volt, too) sure blow like we all do...
I just barely stay under my tier 1 usage that is charged at $0.14707 KWH. If I get an electric car it will be at tier 2 rate of $0.17028 KWH. I don’t know what the rates are at tier 3 & 4. Seems like they always figure the electric car at the low tier 1 rates.
The concerns with battery replacement has been overblown. Li-ion batteries don't just stop working all of the sudden. As all of who have owned smartphones and laptops know, they simply lose capacity over time.
Tesla warranties the battery to lose no more than 30% of capacity for eight years. The worst case scenarios is you hit 70% just as your warranty ends. You can still drive it just fine for years to come. Even after 15 years when it might be down to 50% capacity, it will still have 100 miles of range, more than a new Nissan Leaf or BMW i3.
I do think the Model S will be driven that long because the rest of the powertrain, including the motor, is much simpler, cheaper, and takes less wear and tear than that of a gasoline car. Also, the battery packs are highly modular, so if something happened to one cell you only have to pay to replace that cell. Not to mention the fact that in 8 years the lost of li-ion batteries will be much cheaper.
One of the big reasons dealers are reluctant to sell electric cars is because they would make much less money doing repair work.
What happens on a rainy holiday weekend and Tesla drivers are lined up at the solar-powered supercharger, especially once cheaper Teslas start to proliferate?”
In a hypothetical future when Teslas start to proliferate, there will be hypothetically more charging stations. Today, Tesla is going gangbusters building new charging stations, it is not like they are going to stop once sales start taking off.
Also, all superchargers are hooked into the grid, so they still provide full power even when their solar panels don't produce.
What is the cost of buying, insuring, and maintaining two cars for the luxury of having a super-efficient electric car for local travel to supplement the gas powered car you would need for long distance travel? “
Well, I don't think those who are worried about economic efficiency are the ones interested in spending $100k on a luxury sports sedan like the Model S.
For the situation you describe, a Chevy Volt would be perfect. It has a 40 mile electric range, which covers the daily commute of 78% of Americans, and it also has a gasoline engine for when you need to go farther. (Oh, and the fire scares associated with the Volt turned out to be baloney.)
With the $7,500 federal tax rebate and the $2,500 state tax rebate we have here in Texas, you can get a brand new Volt for $25k.
I know that the tax rebates are not popular, but less than a billion dollars was spent last year on the federal rebates for electric vehicles. Compare that to the $50 billion a year that we spend policing the oil shipping lanes of the middle east with our navy. If these rebates can spur on an industry that could allow us to cut ourselves off from the geopolitics associated with oil, then they are well worth it.
Lithium-6 is a material needed to make thermonuclear bombs, so don't hold your breath waiting for it to be released for public use. Also, I've never heard of how it could be used to make hydrogen cheaply so I'm curious to hear the explanation behind that. Please don't tell me you are referring to that youtube video of the guy who says he uses electricity to split water into hydrogen and oxygen and then uses the hydrogen to power his car. There is a certain something called the first law of thermodynamics that prevent such “free energy” machines from working.
As for government help, Tesla has paid back all of their government loans. Also, I don't think the $7,500 tax credit plays a large part in a customer's decision to buy at $100,000 car. Though, I wouldn't mind if they changed the law to only allow the tax credit to be applied for cars under $50,000.
Wow! Good job!
What do you want to bet we don’t hear another peep out of Mr. Tesla PR Department Buttboy?
>> With the $7,500 federal tax rebate and the $2,500 state tax rebate we have here in Texas, you can get a brand new Volt for $25k.
Grrrr... how come you greenies can’t pay your OWN damn way if you think these things are the way to go? Why do I have to buy your damn car?
“In short, modern German turbo-diesels are neither more efficient nor more Green than electric cars.”
And power stations generate electricity for free? No coal transport energy usage, no resulting particulates?
Knowing a thing or two about physics, I challenge that a gallon of diesel requires 7.5-9 kilowatts of electricity.
First off, for how long? Is that kilowatt hours? If so, I call BS.
Second, the final cost of the diesel gallon is the full cost of is manufacture, distribution, and tank filling. There are no other costs that you claim.
Green car use batteries that are causing massive Superfund cleanup projects. Battery part mining is extremely harmful to the environment. It was shown a Pious pollutes the planet far more than a Hummer in its lifetime because of this.
I just looked up the Tesla Model-S EPA mpg equivalent rating. It is terrible at only 89 mpg.
Someone is supposed to pollute the planet with battery materials mining, have an extremely inconvenient charging issue, be lied to about the battery life, and pay over $100,000, not to mention the illegal taxpayer subsidies we all pay in addition?? For what??
ANY car on the market rides better than a Tesla, is safer than riding like a skateboard on a battery pack, can be fueled in minutes practically at any street corner, pollutes far less than a Tesla, and can be had for under $75,000 and still pay for all the gas it can use in its lifetime.
If the “Saving the planet” and “stopping globull warming” (both ignorant liberal statements) were really the issue, you’d be driving around on a scooter that gets over 100mpg. At the very least a nice motorcycle. My motorcycle gets over 60mpg city and hauls quite a bit, not to mention it’s fun as hell to ride.
“I know that the tax rebates are not popular, but less than a billion dollars was spent last year on the federal rebates for electric vehicles. Compare that to the $50 billion a year that we spend policing the oil shipping lanes of the middle east with our navy. If these rebates can spur on an industry that could allow us to cut ourselves off from the geopolitics associated with oil, then they are well worth it.”
That is a $50 billion a year subsidy the government is providing oil companies in the form of free rent-a-cop service. How about we eliminate the $7,500 electric tax credit right after we add a gas tax that will cover that $50 billion per year? Also don't forget to add in the hidden costs of all the geopolitical entanglements that oil causes. Who really thinks, with all the information that has come out, that oil had nothing to do with why we went into Iraq? That's a trillion dollar and several thousand lives boondoggle that never should have happened (and I voted for GWB and supported the Iraq war, initially).
My electric comes in at about $0.16 per kWh. Not sure where that would go if I had an EV. The car I drive averages about 27 mpg, so that's about $135/month (at 3.65/gal).
Doing a rough calculation, my best case electricity cost for a Leaf would be about $35/month (10 charges) and the Volt (electric use only, 25 charges) would be about $48/month. These numbers will increase significantly in the coldest and hottest months (one source observed that the Leaf's range dropped from 100 to 20 miles on very cold days).
So, if I switched to either of these EV options, yes, I would save money, as much as $100/month, but in very hot or cold weather, that advantage could drop down significantly.
Would I switch to save that much money? Not on your life.
The convenience of being able to get a "full charge" in 10 minutes is worth every penny of the extra money I spend on gas.
Honestly, how long do you think the “free charge from a supercharger” incentive will continue as Tesla has to pay more and more for power off the grid as more cars use their services?
The “free solar power” thing is nothing more than marketing hype to impress the rich greenies.
Wow, did you really believe that “addressing” that point from your skewed POV lays it to rest from my POV? How arrogant.
Yes, I read your blather. I simply don’t buy your POV. It’s deeply flawed. It’s an argument of the “but they’re doing it too!” variety. That happens to be one of the major logical fallacies. As “logic designer”, I’m sure you’re familiar with those.
ELIMINATE ALL GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIES FOR ENERGY.
All means all.
In many parts of the country you can get a time-of-use electricity plan that offers discounts for night and weekends. Here in Houston, there is a plan that offers free electricity between 8 pm and 8 am and all day during the weekend, and another that offers half-price electricity between 8 pm and noon the next day. In exchange you pay a couple cents extra per kWh for daytime electricity.
These plans are worth it for electric companies because it is cheaper for them to provide electricity during low-demand periods. As an aside, those that worry that electric cars will stress the power grid are mistaken because nearly all charging will occur during low-demand periods.
Even if you didn't have an electric car, these plans might be worth it for people whose homes are unoccupied during the day. However, if you did have an electric car, it would definitely be worth it.
“The convenience of being able to get a “full charge” in 10 minutes is worth every penny of the extra money I spend on gas.”
Yea, that is why I recommend the Chevy Volt to people over the Nissan Leaf since it has a gasoline engine as well. Also, don't forget the day-to-day convenience of not having to visit the gas station since you can “refuel” simply by plugging in when you get home in the evening. If you only go on long trips a couple times a year, you might end up only visiting the gas station a couple times a year.
With no transmission losses, no charging losses, and no battery degradation. Fundamentally the battery suffers from low energy density and there's not much we can do about that.
That's wonderful for you, but doesn't work here. Hope you like your toy and the subsidies that we taypayers gave you for it.
You're welcome.
There's no such thing as a solar powered supercharger. They all require fossil or nuclear to supply the high current.
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