Posted on 11/14/2002 11:56:40 AM PST by xzins
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1 And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
One distinctive of amillennial theology is the belief that Satan is bound during this present age. This belief stems from an interpretation that sees the binding of Satan described in Revelation 20:1-3 as being fulfilled today. The purpose of this work is examine the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 and address the question, "Is Satan bound today?" In doing this, our evaluation will include the following: 1) a brief definition of amillennialism; 2) a look at the amillennial approach to interpreting Revelation; 3) an explanation and analysis of the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3; and 4) some concluding thoughts.
Amillennialism is the view that there will be no future reign of Christ on the earth for a thousand years.1 Instead, the thousand year reign of Christ mentioned six times in Revelation 20 is being fulfilled during the present age. According to amillennialists, the "thousand years" is not a literal thousand years but is figurative for "a very long period of indeterminate length." 2 Thus the millennium of Revelation 20:1-6 describes the conditions of the present age between the two comings of Christ. During this period Satan is bound (Rev. 20:1-3) and Christ's Kingdom is being fulfilled (Rev. 20:4-6).3
Before looking specifically at how amillennialists interpret Revelation 20:1-3, it is important to understand how they approach the Book of Revelation. Amillennialists base their interpretation of the Book of Revelation on a system of interpretation known as progressive parallelism. This interpretive system does not view the events of Revelation from a chronological or sequential perspective but, instead, sees the book as describing the church age from several parallel perspectives that run concurrently. 4 Anthony Hoekema, an amillennialist, describes progressive parallelism in the following manner:
According to this view, the book of Revelation consists of seven sections which run parallel to each other, each of which depicts the church and the world from the time of Christ's first coming to the time of his second.5 Following the work of William Hendriksen,6 Hoekema believes there are seven sections of Revelation that describe the present age. These seven sections give a portrait of conditions on heaven and earth during this period between the two comings of Christ. These seven sections which run parallel to each other are chapters 1-3, 4-7, 8-11, 12-14, 15-16, 17-19 and 20-22. What is significant for our purposes is that amillennialists see Revelation 20:1 as taking the reader back to the beginning of the present age. As Hoekema states, "Revelation 20:1 takes us back once again to the beginning of the New Testament era."7 Amillennialists, thus, do not see a chronological connection between the events of Revelation 19:11-21 that describe the second coming of Christ, and the millennial reign discussed in Revelation 20:1-6. As Hendriksen says, "Rev. 19:19ff. carried us to the very end of history, to the day of final judgment. With Rev. 20 we return to the beginning of our present dispensation."8 The amillennial view sees chapter nineteen as taking the reader up to the second coming, but the beginning of chapter twenty takes him back once again to the beginning of the present age. In other words, the events of Revelation 20:1-6 do not follow the events of Revelation 19:11-21.
With the principle of progressive parallelism as his base, the amillennialist holds that the binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 took place at Christ's first coming.9 This binding ushered in the millennial kingdom. As William Cox says,
Thus the present age is the millennium and one characteristic of this millennial period is that Satan is now bound. This binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3, according to the amillennialist, finds support in the Gospels, particularly Jesus' binding of the strong man in Matthew 12:29. As Hoekema states,
Hoekema also points out that the word used by Matthew (delta epsilon omega) to describe the binding of the strong man is the same word used in Revelation 20 to describe the binding of Satan.12 In addition to Matthew 12:29, amillennialists believe they have confirming exegetical support from Luke 10:17-18 and John 12:31-32. In Luke 10, when the seventy disciples returned from their mission they said to Jesus, "'Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.'" And He said to them, 'I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning'" (Luke 10:17-18). According to Hoekema, "Jesus saw in the works his disciples were doing an indication that Satan's kingdom had just been dealt a crushing blow-that, in fact, a certain binding of Satan, a certain restriction of his power, had just taken place."13
John 12:31-32, another supporting text used by amillennialists states: "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world shall be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." Hoekema points out that the verb translated "cast out" (epsilon kappa beta alpha lambda lambda omega) is derived from the same root as the word used in Revelation 20:3 when it says an angel "threw [ballo] him into the abyss." 14
What is the significance of this binding of Satan according the amillennial position? This binding has special reference to Satan's ability to deceive the nations during the present age. Because Satan is now bound, he is no longer able to deceive the nations as he did before the first coming of Christ. Before Christ's first coming, all the nations of the world, except Israel, were under the deception of Satan. Except for the occasional person, family or city that came into contact with God's people or His special revelation, Gentiles, as a whole, were shut out from salvation.15 With the coming of Christ, however, Jesus bound Satan, and in so doing, removed his ability to deceive the nations. This binding, though, did not mean a total removal of Satan's activity, for Satan is still active and able to do harm. As Cox says, "Satan now lives on probation until the second coming."16 But while he is bound, Satan is no longer able to prevent the spread of the Gospel nor is he able to destroy the Church. Also, according to amillennialists, the "abyss" to which Satan is assigned is not a place of final punishment but a figurative description of the way Satan's activities are being curbed during this age.17
Hoekema summarizes the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 by saying,
"We conclude, then, that the binding of Satan during the Gospel age means that, first, he cannot prevent the spread of the gospel, and second, he cannot gather all the enemies of Christ together to attack the church."18
Though amillennial scholars have clearly and logically laid out their case for the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3, there are serious hermeneutical, exegetical and theological difficulties with their interpretation of this text.
1) The approach to interpreting Revelation known as "progressive parallelism is highly suspect The first difficulty to be examined is hermeneutical and deals with the amillennial approach to interpreting the Book of Revelation. In order for the amillennial interpretation of Revelation 20:1-3 to be correct, the interpretive approach to Revelation known as "progressive parallelism" must also be accurate. Yet this approach which sees seven sections of Revelation running parallel to each other chronologically is largely unproven and appears arbitrary. As Hoekema admits, the approach of progressive parallelism, "is not without its difficulties."19
The claim that Revelation 20:1 "takes us back once again to the beginning of the New Testament era,"20 does not seem warranted from the text. There certainly are no indicators within the text that the events of Revelation 20:1 take the reader back to the beginning of the present age. Nor are there textual indicators that the events of Revelation 20 should be separated chronologically from the events of Revelation 19:11-21. In fact, the opposite is the case. The events of Revelation 20 seem to follow naturally the events described in Revelation 19:11-21. If one did not have a theological presupposition that the millennium must be fulfilled in the present age, what indicators within the text would indicate that 20:1 takes the reader back to the beginning of the church era? A normal reading indicates that Christ appears from heaven (19:11-19), He destroys his enemies including the beast and the false prophet (19:20-21) and then He deals with Satan by binding him and casting him into the abyss (20:1-3). As Ladd says, "There is absolutely no hint of any recapitulation in chapter 20."21
That John uses the formula "and I saw" (kappa alpha iota epsilon iota delta omicron nu) at the beginning of Revelation 20:1 also gives reason to believe that what he is describing is taking place in a chronological manner.22 Within Revelation 19-22, this expression is used eight times (19:11, 17, 19; 20:1, 4, 11, 12; 21:1). When John uses "and I saw," he seems to be describing events in that are happening in a chronological progression. Commenting on these eight uses of "and I saw" in this section, Thomas states,
The case favoring chronological sequence in the fulfillment of these scenes is very strong. Progression from Christ's return to the invitation to the birds of prey and from that invitation to the defeat of the beast is obvious. So is the progression from the binding of Satan to the Millennium and final defeat of Satan and from the final defeat to the new heaven and new earth with all this entails. The interpretation allowing for chronological arrangement of these eight scenes is one-sidedly strong. 23
A natural reading of the text indicates that the events of Revelation 20 follow the events of Revelation 19:11-21. It is also significant that Hoekema, himself, admits that a chronological reading of Revelation would naturally lead one to the conclusion that the millennium follows the second coming when he says, "If, then, one thinks of Revelation 20 as describing what follows chronologically after what is described in chapter 19, one would indeed conclude that the millennium of Revelation 20:1-6 will come after the return of Christ.24
Herman Hoyt, when commenting on this statement by Hoekema, rightly stated, "This appears to be a fatal admission."25 And it is. Hoekema admits that a normal reading of Revelation 19 and 20 would not lead one to the amillennial position. In a sense, the amillennialist is asking the reader to disregard the plain meaning of the text for an assumption that has no exegetical warrant. As Hoyt says,
The hermeneutical foundation of amillennialism is, indeed, a shaky one. The seriousness of this must not be underestimated. For if the amillennialist is wrong on his approach to interpreting the Book of Revelation, his attempt at placing Satan's binding during the present age has suffered a major if not fatal blow. 2) The amillennial view does not adequately do justice to the language of Revelation 20:1-3 According to the amillennial view, Satan is unable to deceive the nations as he did before the first coming of Christ, but he is still active and able to do harm in this age. His activities, then, have not ceased but are limited.27 This, however, does not do justice to what is described in Revelation 20:1-3. According to the text, Satan is "bound" with a "great chain" (vv.1-2) and thrown into the "abyss" that is "shut" and "sealed" for a thousand years (v. 3). This abyss acts as a "prison" (v. 7) until the thousand years are completed. The acts of binding, throwing, shutting and sealing indicate that Satan's activities are completely finished. As Mounce states:
The elaborate measures taken to insure his [Satan's] custody are most easily understood as implying the complete cessation of his influence on earth (rather than a curbing of his activities)."28
Berkouwer, who himself is an amillennialist, admits that the standard amillennial explanation of this text does not do justice to what is described:
Those who interpret the millennium as already realized in the history of the church try to locate this binding in history. Naturally, such an effort is forced to relativize the dimensions of this binding, for it is impossible to find evidence for a radical elimination of Satan's power in that "realized millennium." . . . The necessary relativizing of John's description of Satan's bondage (remember that Revelation 20 speaks of a shut and sealed pit) is then explained by the claim that, although Satan is said to deceive the nations no more (vs. 3), this does not exclude satanic activity in Christendom or individual persons. I think it is pertinent to ask whether this sort of interpretation really does justice to the radical proportions of the binding of Satan-that he will not be freed from imprisonment for a thousand years. 29
The binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is set forth in strong terms that tell of the complete cessation of his activities. The amillennial view that Satan's binding is just a restriction or a "probation," as Cox has stated,30 does not hold up under exegetical scrutiny.
3) The amillennial view conflicts with the New Testament's depiction of Satan's activities in the present age The view that Satan is bound during this age contradicts multiple New Testament passages which show that Satan is presently active and involved in deception. He is "the god of this world [who] has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ" (2 Corinthians 4:4). He is our adversary who "prowls about like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour" (1 Peter 5:8). In the church age he was able to fill the heart of Ananias (Acts 5:3) and "thwart" the work of God's ministers (1 Thess. 2:18). He is one for whom we must protect ourselves from by putting on the whole armor of God (Ephesians 6:10-19). Satan's influence in this age is so great that John declared "the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19). These passages do not depict a being who has been bound and shut up in a pit. As Grudem has rightly commented, "the theme of Satan's continual activity on earth throughout the church age, makes it extremely difficult to think that Satan has been thrown into the bottomless pit."31
What then of the amillennial argument that Matthew 12:29 teaches that Jesus bound Satan at His first coming? The answer is that this verse does not teach that Satan was bound at that time. What Jesus stated in Matthew 12:29 is that in order for kingdom conditions to exist on the earth, Satan must first be bound. He did not say that Satan was bound yet. As Toussaint says:
By this statement He [Jesus] previews John the Apostle's discussion in Revelation 20. Jesus does not say He has bound Satan or is even in the process of doing so. He simply sets the principle before the Pharisees. His works testify to His ability to bind Satan, and therefore they attest His power to establish the kingdom.32 Jesus' casting out of demons (Matt. 12:22-29) was evidence that He was the Messiah of Israel who could bring in the kingdom. His mastery over demons showed that He had the authority to bind Satan. But as the multiple New Testament texts have already affirmed, this binding did not take place at Christ's first coming. It will, though, at His second. What Jesus presented as principle in Matthew 12:29 will come to fulfillment in Revelation 20:1-3. Luke 10:17-18 and John 12:31-32 certainly tell of Christ's victory over Satan but these passages do not teach that Satan is bound during this age. No Christian denies that the work of Christ, especially his death on the cross, brought a crushing defeat to Satan, but the final outworking of that defeat awaits the second coming. That is why Paul could tell the believers at Rome that "the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet" (Romans 16:20). For the one contemplating the validity of amillennialism the question must be asked, Does the binding of Satan described in Revelation 20:1-3 accurately describe Satan's condition today? An analysis of multiple scriptural texts along with the present world situation strongly indicates that the answer is No. 4) Satan's deceiving activities continue throughout most of the Book of Revelation According to amillennialists, Satan was bound at the beginning of the Church age and he no longer has the ability to deceive the nations during the present age. But within the main sections of Revelation itself, Satan is pictured as having an ongoing deceptive influence on the nations. If Satan is bound during this age and Revelation describes conditions during this present age, we should expect to see a cessation of his deceptive activities throughout the book. But the opposite is the case. Satan's deception is very strong throughout Revelation. Revelation 12:9, for instance, states that "Satan. . . deceives the whole world." This verse presents Satan as a present deceiver of the world, not one who is bound.33
Satan's deception is also evident in the authority he gives to the first beast (Rev. 13:2) and the second beast who "deceives those who dwell on the earth" (Rev. 13:14). Satan is certainly the energizer of political Babylon of whom it is said, "all the nations were deceived by your sorcery" (Revelation 18:23).
Satan's ability to deceive the nations throughout the Book of Revelation shows that he was not bound at the beginning of the present age. Grudem's note on the mentioned passages is well taken, "it seems more appropriate to say that Satan is now still deceiving the nations, but at the beginning of the millennium this deceptive influence will be removed."34
The amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 that Satan is bound during this age is not convincing and fails in several ways. Hermeneutically it fails in that its approach to interpreting the Book of Revelation is based on the flawed system of progressive parallelism. This system forces unnatural breaks in the text that a normal reading of Revelation does not allow. This is especially true with the awkward break between the millennial events of Revelation 20 and the account of the second coming in Revelation 19:11-21. Exegetically, the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 does not do justice to the language of the text. The binding described in this passage clearly depicts a complete cessation of Satan's activities-not just a limitation as amillennialists believe. Theologically, the view that Satan is bound today simply does not fit with the multiple New Testament texts that teach otherwise. Nor can the amillennial view be reconciled with the passages within Revelation itself that show Satan as carrying on deceptive activity. To answer the question posed in the title of this work, "Is Satan bound today?" The answer from the biblical evidence is clearly, No.
1. The prefix "a-" means "no." Amillennialism, therefore, means "no millennium." 2. Anthony Hoekema, "Amillennialism," The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views, Robert G. Clouse, ed. (Downers Grove: Inter Varsity, 1977), p. 161. 3. Among amillennial lists there are differences of opinion as to exactly what Christ's millennial reign specifically is. Augustine, Allis and Berkhof believed the millennial reign of Christ refers to the Church on earth. On the other hand, Warfield taught that Christ's kingdom involves deceased saints who are reigning with Christ from heaven. 4. This approach to Revelation can be traced to the African Donatist, Tyconius, a late fourth-century interpreter. Millennium based on a recapitulation method of interpretation. Using this principle Tyconius saw Revelation as containing several different visions that repeated basic themes throughout the book. Tyconius also interpreted the thousand years of Revelation 20:1-6 in nonliteral terms and understood the millennial period as referring to the present age. This recapitulation method was adopted by Augustine and has carried on through many Roman Catholic and Protestant interpreters. See Alan Johnson, "Reve lation,"Expositor's Bible Commentary, Frank E. Gaebelein, ed. (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1981), v. 12, pp. 578-79. 6. William Hendriksen, More Than Conquerors (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1940). 9. Hendriksen defines what the amillennialist means by "first coming." "When we say 'the first coming' we have reference to all the events associated with it, from the incarnation to the coronation. We may say, therefore, that the binding of satan [sic], according to all these passages, begins with that first coming" Hendriksen, p.226. 10. William E. Cos, Amillennialism Today (Phillipsburg: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1966), p. 58. 21. George Eldon Ladd, "An Historical Premillennial Response," The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views, p. 190. 22. Harold W. Hoehner says, "Though these words are not as forceful a chronological order as 'after these things I saw' ( (meta tauta eidon; 4:1; 7:9; 15:5; 18:1) or 'after these things I heard' ( meta tauta ekousa, 19:1), they do show chronological progression." Harold W. Hoehner, "Evidence from Revelation 20," A case For Premillennialism: A New Consensus, Donald K. Campbell and Jeffrey L. Townsend, eds. (Chicago: Moody Press, 1992), pp. 247-48. 23. Robert. L. Thomas, Revelation 8-22: An Exegetical Commentary (Chicago: Moody, 1995), pp. 247-48. 25. Herman A. Hoyt, "A Dispensational Premillennial Response," The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views, p. 193. 27. As Cox says, "Satan's binding refers (in figurative language) to the limiting of his power." Cox, p. 59. 28. Robert H. Mounce, The Book of Revelation (Grand Rapids: Eerchnans, 1977), p. 353. Grudem also adds, "More than a mere binding or restriction of activity is in view here. The imagery of throwing Satan into a pit and shutting it and sealing it over him gives a picture of total removal from influence on the earth." Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology 29. G.C.Berkouwer, The Return of Christ, Studies in Dogmatics (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1972), p. 305. 32. Stanley D. Toussaint, Behold the King: A Study of Matthew (Portland: Multnomah, 1981), p. 305. 33. The argument that the casting down of Satan in Revelation 12:9 is the same event as the binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 breaks down for two reasons. First, in Revelation 12:9 Satan was thrown from heaven to the earth. But in Revelation 20:1-3 he is taken from the earth to the abyss. Second, in Revelation 12:9 Satan's activities, including his deception of the nations, continue, while in Revelation 20:1-3 his activities are completely stopped as he is shut up and sealed in the abyss. 34. Grudem, p. 1118.
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I'm not trying to avoid anything. I have a pretty good idea of the premil viewpoint. I was not commenting on the meaning of the 1000 years. I was trying to look at a logical procession of thought in this passage as to the meaning and significance of the binding of satan so he could no longer deceive the nations. Most, if not all biblical passages have coherence and and logical procession. It seems that most interpretations of Rev. 20 move from spiritual deception to bodily resurrection without any kind of explanation as to how satan's inability to deceive (a spiritual concept) the nations results in their bodily resurrection.
I don't understand the seeming corellation that when satan deceives people they are physically dead. And when he can no longer deceive them then they are physically alive.
I just don't get the connection. Perhaps you can explain it to me.
You're right about that passage, I don't have a good answer for you.
Who is harvesting the earth and for what and when ? The unsaved dead must be raiised then too right?
"unsaved dead must be raised then"? No I don't see that as mandatory and this is towards the end of the tribulation, a 1000 years before the white throne judgement. God is harvesting living people judging by the amount of blood shed. In Rev 14:16 it's non-specific, while in Rev 14:18-20 it's the 'grapes', people who are the objects of God's wrath. This is between the 2nd and 3rd woes, between the 5th and 7th trumpets.
so how long is the time that Satan takes to gather that army?
I don't know. As I previously posted, not every one dies at the end of the tribulation. The 1000 years would seem to begin with some human population left. Presumably, that population grows (some as Gog and Magog) and is ultimately deceived (their forebears having been deceived as well) by Satan.
Thats strange he has given you all of his other travel plans
Well, actually only those in His word, same as He has given to you.
Do you think by now, after answering all of your questions, you might persuade the_doc to answer mine in post 848:
or does this explaining viewpoints only go one way?The beheading idea in Revelation 20:4 is not necessarily limiting us to physically dead Christians anyway. It definitely includes those who have died physically, certainly including literal martyrs, but the verse may very well be just borrowing a martyrdom scenario for beautiful metaphorical purposes in the vision--including metaphorical purposes involving Christians who are still physically alive!
So, what are those metaphorical purposes and what is Christ who is our spiritual head, teaching us in this metaphor of believers in Christ testifying to Him, rejecting Satan, and yet losing their metaphorical heads to an already bound Satan?
Didn't you say that the wheat and the tares and the sheep and the goats were the harvest? That sure sounds like a judgement to me. That is NOT about the amount of blood shed unless you have a scripture I do not l know.please cite it as that seperation seems very clear ..a seperation of the righteous from the unrighteous and it sounds VERY much like .
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
In your scenario what happens to the unsaved then ? Do they just keep on ticking?
In Rev 14:16 it's non-specific, while in Rev 14:18-20 it's the 'grapes', people who are the objects of God's wrath. This is between the 2nd and 3rd woes, between the 5th and 7th trumpets.
So this seperation comes VERY early in Revelation? Interesting because we are told that the Rapture is NOT a coming because He never sets foot on the earth but that is not what Chapter 14 tells us
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo,a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
So this "harvest "appears to be after the rapture..because Jesus is on Mt Zion..so who would be left to harvest?
so how long is the time that Satan takes to gather that army?
I don't know. As I previously posted, not every one dies at the end of the tribulation.
But this is not about the Tribulation..this is about the White Throne Judgement..I aske How and when He went there to judge...by your reckoning that would have to be after the 1000 years not the begining
Thats strange he has given you all of his other travel plans Well, actually only those in His word, same as He has given to you. Well as I read it it will all happen at one time..you are the ones with the travel plans not me
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. In your scenario what happens to the unsaved then ? Do they just keep on ticking?
As previously posted to Rnmomof7 in #886, eternity in hell.
So this "harvest "appears to be after the rapture..because Jesus is on Mt Zion..so who would be left to harvest?
Any who came to Christ after the rapture.
But this is not about the Tribulation..this is about the White Throne Judgement..I aske How and when He went there to judge...by your reckoning that would have to be after the 1000 years not the begining
You go back and re-read your question in #959 about how long did it take Satan to gather that army for the final war. I answered in #965 that I didn't know, but volunteered the size started with those remaining at the end of the Tribulation.
This seem to be a one way exchange, and I'm done being your search engine.
yes, I believe there will be, for those who are alive at Christ's return. They will obtain salvation the same way we do, by faith in the Risen Savior. They will be more like Thomas, in that they will be able to see with their own eyes the King of Glory. Salvation is always by the Blood of Christ.
Jesus said that it was not intended for all to understand..you may not like that but it is what he said. His people will not be deceived..
I have no problem with what Jesus said. But the key of the question is Does God lay traps for HIS PEOPLE? You did not really answer the question, in that you referred to His people as those who will not be deceived, but there are others here (and you know who they are) who believe that God DOES lay traps for HIS PEOPLE. I find that disturbing, and very wrong, as they are attributing the work of Satan to God. A trap is a deception, and I don't believe God is in the deception business.
you said: xzins said there would be "almost" no sin... So tell me here you have people ruled by the Holy Savior for 1000 years of peace and prosperity WITH SATAN TOTALLY bound..
How is that sin dealt with? Animal sacrifices?
I don't believe that there will be much difference in the way sin is dealt with during the Millenium and now. If there are animal sacrifices, the only real purpose would be to give graphic knowledge of the awfulness and seriousness of sin. Even in the OT, animal sacrifices didn't actually absolve sins, it was the faith of the person offering the scarifice in the effectiveness of the shedding of blood as a covering for sin that effected their covering of sin. Salvation has always been by faith. That will not change.
Those that die as saints.When are they raised and given new bodies?
Good question. Would you happen to know? I've never even thought about that.
That is AFTER Jesus is on Mt Sion....and pray tell what kind of harvest is that for?? You take a scripture that says blood in it and call it a harvest. That sure does not sound like the peaceful millunnium...
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. In your scenario what happens to the unsaved then ? Do they just keep on ticking?
I was addressing the Harvest in Rev 14........what happens to all those killed with the angel's sickle.?? Do they go to the grave? To hell directly ..just what king of millenium judgement is this judgement of blood?
So you see two final damnation judgements..could you give me a scripture on that ? A harvest of judgement after the rapture then a REAL judgement after Satan has his turn?
This seem to be a one way exchange, and I'm done being your search engine.
The truth is your theology has more questions than answers when examined closely..I do not blame you for running away
Not running away, just not doing your searches anymore. If you post an insightful question, I'll do my best to answer it honestly.
I never said I had all the answers and I have more questions of my own than you've raised. I said my interpretation had problems as do the rest. I've been honest about my agreements, disagreements, ignorance and mistakes, and patient with you and others.
As previously posted, I wanted to explore what the the_doc had suggested was a key interpretation of Rev 20. I didn't come to this thread offering my views. I came to learn what the_doc's views were.
But it would seem it is the_doc that has run away as it is his answers that have been withheld. Here is my question again for the_doc or gdebrae from post 848:
The beheading idea in Revelation 20:4 is not necessarily limiting us to physically dead Christians anyway. It definitely includes those who have died physically, certainly including literal martyrs, but the verse may very well be just borrowing a martyrdom scenario for beautiful metaphorical purposes in the vision--including metaphorical purposes involving Christians who are still physically alive!
So, what are those metaphorical purposes and what is Christ who is our spiritual head, teaching us in this metaphor of believers in Christ testifying to Him, rejecting Satan, and yet losing their metaphorical heads to an already bound Satan?
I also notice that you tag-team...I started out talking to Jean, and now suddenly I'm talking to CC...Who's next? the _doc? Or maybe jude24? ~ nobdysfool
Ok, busted! Jean sent me a mail before Thanksgiving telling me I could reply to posts directed at him. Evidently, he had honey-do's before family arrived. Now, I'm going to answer this one and turn you back to Jean. I will be getting back to the weekly grind and my Freep time will probably go way down for a while.
I asked:
Does [Mat 12:28] literally say that if you see this sign then the kingdom of God is come unto us?
Does [Mat 12:28] literally say that if the Lord casts out devils he must first bind the strong man Satan?
Yes, they do say that, precisely. But the first one DOES NOT say that ALL of the Kingdom of God has come unto us,... ~ nobdysfool
Well, gosh, I guess that you have me. Jesus does not say that the whole kingdom of God has come unto us. Neither does He say that the kingdom of God is only half-way here. What exactly is your contention--that the gospel itself is only half of a kingdom or part of a kingdom? If you are going to contend that, then you need to provide scriptural proof that...
Jesus came to the Galilee preaching the gospel of NOT ALL the kingdom of God saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is NOT ALL here. Repent and Believe in this gospel." (Mark 1:14)
Jesus went through every city and village, preaching and bringing the glad tiding of part of the kingdom of God. (Luke 8:1)
the people believed Philip as he preached the things concerning half of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 8:12).
Paul solemnly testified about some of the kingdom of God from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets from morning till evening. (Acts 28:23)
... and the second DOES NOT say that the binding of the Strong Man is the same as Rev 20:1-3 ~ nobdysfool
Again, you have me. The verse does not specifically say that the binding of the strong man is the same as Rev 20:1-3. I would remind you, though, of your exact words, which started this whole line of conversation: "I do not believe you can show any evidence for Satan being bound in any meaningful way in the last 2000 years." I do presume that you admit that you were in error when you said that. Certainly, Satan has been bound in a meaningful way in the last 2000 years.
Plus, I would point out that if Jesus began to plunder Satan's house 2000 years ago and the gospel of the kingdom of God is still being preached in all the nations as a witness (Mat 24:14), then the Lord Jesus is still plundering Satan's house of it's precious jewels (1 Pe 2:4-5). Certainly, if Satan is bound so that he cannot prevent the plundering of his house of its precious jewels he would be roaming about like a lion seeking whom he may devour for he knows his time is short. Hmmm!
You base your reading of that solely on the idea of binding. You see "bind the strong man", and you think, "Hmmm..Rev, 20 says that Satan will be bound, so that must be the same thing". Pretty lame if you ask me. ~ nobdysfool
Well, if the Lord Jesus began to plunder Satan's house 2000 years ago of its precious jewels and the gospel of the kingdom of God is still being preached in all the nations as a witness (Mat 24:14), then the Lord Jesus is still plundering Satan's house of it's precious jewels (1 Pe 2:4-5).
That's the problem here...you are reading into these verses your own view, the same way you accuse me of reading into Rev. 20 what I want to see. ~ nobdysfool
Well, if the Lord Jesus began to plunder Satan's house 2000 years ago of its precious jewels and the gospel of the kingdom of God is still being preached in all the nations as a witness (Mat 24:14), then the Lord Jesus is still plundering Satan's house of it's precious jewels (1 Pe 2:4-5).
This is the weak spot in your Amil theology...the idea that the full Kingdom is already come, and that Satan is already bound per Rev. 20, and you have not one shred of real evidence to back that up, other than your myopic reading of Matt. 12:28 and Rev. 20:1-3. ~ nobdysfool
Ahem! It is you who need to provide evidence that Jesus and all the Apostles and all the disciples throughout 2000 years of history have it somehow wrong and that the "full" kingdom of God has not already come:
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel [of the kingdom of God] to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
Now, if the Lord has not healed the brokenhearted or preached deliverance to the captives or recovered the sight of the blind or set at liberty the bruised or preached the acceptable year of the Lord or only done some of these things, then you might have a case that the full kingdom of God has not yet come. Until you provide scriptural evidence for your "not quite yet" kingdom of God, then you are the one with the nearsighted reading of scripture.
Your hill is a tall one considering that the kingdom of God IS the gospel.
You try to connect Rev. 20 with Matt 12:28 by pointing to the idea of binding the strong man, but if they truly were connected, then the binding in Rev. 20 happened BEFORE Christ went to the cross. ~ nobdysfool
Well, of course, Satan was bound before Jesus went to the cross, exactly as both Mat 12 and Rev 20 say. The binding of Satan happened when the messenger of the Lord came down from heaven. Just exactly who do you think the Lord Jesus is if he is not ~THE~ Messenger from God sent to bring the glad tiding of the kingdom of God and preach deliverance to the captives and preach the acceptable year of the Lord? Doesn't the Hebrews writer call Jesus the great Apostle of our confession (Heb 3:1)?
And, if the strong man is bound so that one can plunder his house, can the strong man do anything to cause trouble for the plunderer? I would say, NO! However, you say Satan is bound now, yet he still seems to be able to cause quite a bit of trouble even for God's Elect. Some binding! ~ nobdysfool
Well, you are correct. The Lord Jesus is simply too powerful for Satan. Just exactly what trouble do you contend that Satan is able to cause for God's precious Elect One in whom His soul delights?
The binding referred to in Rev 20 goes way beyond just tying up the strong man. It's tying him up, taking him to a maximum security prison, putting him in the Hole, and sealing the door shut, so he is incommunicado with anyone and everyone else. From that place, he can cause NO TROUBLE to those who are plundering his house...
Like I said, just exactly what trouble do you think that Satan is able to cause for the Lord Jesus?
John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to me,...
John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
Colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,...
Colossians 3:1 If then you ~WERE~ raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.... For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
It seems to me as if all is well in the kingdom of God. AKUNA MATADA
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