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An opposing view: Descendant of black Confederate soldier speaks at museum
Thomasville Times-Enterprise ^ | 24 Feb 2004 | Mark Lastinger

Posted on 02/25/2004 11:52:26 AM PST by 4CJ

THOMASVILLE -- Nelson Winbush knows his voice isn't likely to be heard above the crowd that writes American history books. That doesn't keep him from speaking his mind, however.

A 75-year-old black man whose grandfather proudly fought in the gray uniform of the South during the Civil War, Winbush addressed a group of about 40 at the Thomas County Museum of History Sunday afternoon. To say the least, his perspective of the war differs greatly from what is taught in America's classrooms today.

"People have manufactured a lot of mistruths about why the war took place," he said. "It wasn't about slavery. It was about state's rights and tariffs."

Many of Winbush's words were reserved for the Confederate battle flag, which still swirls amid controversy more than 150 years after it originally flew.

"This flag has been lied about more than any flag in the world," Winbush said. "People see it and they don't really know what the hell they are looking at."

About midway through his 90-minute presentation, Winbush's comments were issued with extra force.

"This flag is the one that draped my grandfathers' coffin," he said while clutching it strongly in his left hand. "I would shudder to think what would happen if somebody tried to do something to this particular flag."

Winbush, a retired in educator and Korean War veteran who resides in Kissimmee, Fla., said the Confederate battle flag has been hijacked by racist groups, prompting unwarranted criticism from its detractors.

"This flag had nothing to with the (Ku Klux) klan or skinheads," he said while wearing a necktie that featured the Confederate emblem. "They weren't even heard of then. It was just a guide to follow in battle.

"That's all it ever was."

Winbush said Confederate soldiers started using the flag with the St. Andrews cross because its original flag closely resembled the U.S. flag. The first Confederate flag's blue patch in an upper corner and its alternating red and white stripes caused confusion on the battlefield, he said.

"Neither side (of the debate) knows what the flag represents," Winbush said. "It's dumb and dumber. You can turn it around, but it's still two dumb bunches.

"If you learn anything else today, don't be dumb."

Winbush learned about the Civil War at the knee of Louis Napoleon Nelson, who joined his master and one of his master's sons in battle voluntarily when he was 14. Nelson saw combat at Lookout Mountain, Bryson's Crossroads, Shiloh and Vicksburg.

"At Shiloh, my grandfather served as a chaplain even though he couldn't read or write," said Winbush, who bolstered his points with photos, letters and newspapers that used to belong to his grandfather. "I've never heard of a black Yankee holding such an office, so that makes him a little different."

Winbush said his grandfather, who also served as a "scavenger," never had any qualms about fighting for the South. He had plenty of chances to make a break for freedom, but never did. He attended 39 Confederate reunions, the final one in 1934. A Sons of Confederate Veterans Chapter in Tennessee is named after him.

"People ask why a black person would fight for the Confederacy. (It was) for the same damned reason a white Southerner did," Winbush explained.

Winbush said Southern blacks and whites often lived together as extended families., adding slaves and slave owners were outraged when Union forces raided their homes. He said history books rarely make mention of this.

"When the master and his older sons went to war, who did he leave his families with?" asked Winbush, who grandfather remained with his former owners 12 years after the hostilities ended. "It was with the slaves. Were his (family members) mistreated? Hell, no!

"They were protected."

Winbush said more than 90,000 blacks, some of them free, fought for the Confederacy. He has said in the past that he would have fought by his grandfather's side in the 7th Tennessee Cavalry led by Gen. Nathan Bedford Forest.

After his presentation, Winbush opened the floor for questions. Two black women, including Jule Anderson of the Thomas County Historical Society Board of Directors, told him the Confederate battle flag made them uncomfortable.

Winbush, who said he started speaking out about the Civil War in 1992 after growing weary of what he dubbed "political correctness," was also challenged about his opinions.

"I have difficulty in trying to apply today's standards with what happened 150 years ago," he said to Anderson's tearful comments. "...That's what a lot of people are attempting to do. I'm just presenting facts, not as I read from some book where somebody thought that they understood. This came straight from the horse's mouth, and I refute anybody to deny that."

Thomas County Historical Society Board member and SVC member Chip Bragg moved in to close the session after it took a political turn when a white audience member voiced disapproval of the use of Confederate symbols on the state flag. Georgia voters are set to go to the polls a week from today to pick a flag to replace the 1956 version, which featured the St. Andrew's cross prominently.

"Those of us who are serious about our Confederate heritage are very unhappy with the trivialization of Confederate symbols and their misuse," he said. "Part of what we are trying to do is correct this misunderstanding."


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: dixie; dixielist
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To: nolu chan
prove that William Edward Burghardt DuBois was a neoconfederate who was full of hate.

The trap is sprung. You will find him in the morning, three legs chewed off; the fourth still clamped and chained to a stake.

1,621 posted on 03/25/2004 5:12:10 AM PST by Gianni (Sarcasm, the other white meat.)
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To: Gianni
How's my #3logic?

Furry or Fuzzy!

1,622 posted on 03/25/2004 5:40:14 AM PST by 4CJ (||) OUR sins put Him on that cross - HIS love for us kept Him there. (||)
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To: #3Fan; lentulusgracchus
You guys never disagree with each other.

Hey LG, in your 1534, you wrote in reference to #3Fan, "Talkin' about you over here." [emphasis mine, citation ommitted]

I disagree ;o)

1,623 posted on 03/25/2004 5:57:05 AM PST by 4CJ (||) OUR sins put Him on that cross - HIS love for us kept Him there. (||)
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To: nolu chan
That seems like a reasonable description.

You forgot to include the part about his employment of slaves indentured servants, his sexual inclinations, and his lack of respect for churches & religion.

1,624 posted on 03/25/2004 6:01:24 AM PST by 4CJ (||) OUR sins put Him on that cross - HIS love for us kept Him there. (||)
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To: nolu chan
Haterade????

Bwaahahahahahahahahaha!

1,625 posted on 03/25/2004 6:05:10 AM PST by 4CJ (||) OUR sins put Him on that cross - HIS love for us kept Him there. (||)
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To: Gianni
As far as the rest of your post, I hate people who wage war on civilians. The US defines terrorism as violence or threatened violence against innocents for the purpose of bringing about a political end. Sherman's boasting that he was "bringing the war home" to the South makes me want to puke to think he ever wore a uniform.

Bump. Which makes reading the screed written by the shrew Lucy Shelton Stewart even more detestable.

As an aside, it's Sherman [*spit*]. You can uppercase the *spit* if you so desire.

1,626 posted on 03/25/2004 6:08:44 AM PST by 4CJ (||) OUR sins put Him on that cross - HIS love for us kept Him there. (||)
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To: Fiddlstix
Thank's for the BTTT. At this rate, we just might make it to 2000.
1,627 posted on 03/25/2004 6:09:58 AM PST by 4CJ (||) OUR sins put Him on that cross - HIS love for us kept Him there. (||)
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
At this rate, we just might make it to 2000.

If you take out #3's repeats, this thread is not nearly so large as it appears.

1,628 posted on 03/25/2004 8:32:54 AM PST by rustbucket
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To: #3Fan
Charleston South Carolina?

Yes. The same town whose civilians were bombarded by Federals for 18 months. Talk about your barbarous acts. The lurkers might be interested in some of the following effects of the bombardment I've found mention of. It is for them I post this since you seem little interested in responding seriously.

Mrs. Hawthorne

In the afternoon, between four and five o’clock, the enemy again opened on the city. Sixteen shells were fired. One white woman, a Mrs. Hawthorne, was severely wounded by a fragment of shell striking her on the left side of the head. (Charleston Daily Courier, Dec 2, 1863)

Mrs. Hawthorne, the woman who was wounded Tuesday afternoon, was still alive up to seven o’clock Wednesday evening. Dr. Frost is the attending physician. Very little hopes were entertained for her recovery, as (the left side?) of the head is fractured, and the ----- (can’t read). (Charleston Daily Courier, Dec 3, 1863)

Church in danger

Whereas the Congregation of the St. John’s Evangelical Lutheran Church are prevented from worshipping in their Sanctuary in consequence of the missiles of destruction which are being thrown into their vicinity by our remorseless and infidel foe; Therefore, Resolved, That the above named Congregation be most earnestly and affectionately invited to worship with us in the Morris-street Lutheran Church, as long as their necessities or inclination may require. (Charleston Daily Courier, Dec 19, 1863)

Firemen, William Knighton, Miss Plane, and others

Charleston, Dec 25 – The enemy commenced shelling the city last night, keeping up a steady fire which is still going on at 9 o’clock this morning. A fire broke out about 9 o’clock, destroying some ten or twelve buildings, and causing a few casualties. Heavy firing is heard in the direction of Stone. The shelling of the city has continued with only an interval of an hour at noon. One white man was mortally and a white woman slightly wounded by shells.
Three firemen were badly wounded by the falling of walls of burnt buildings, and some eight or ten others were slightly wounded. Affairs at Sumter remain quiet. (The Memphis Daily Appeal [Atlanta, GA]. December 28, 1863)

The gunners always increased their rate of fire when they saw a blaze, but in spite of the shells bursting near their engine, the firemen worked uninterruptedly. Four firemen and four soldiers were injured in fighting the fire, and a little further up the street, an 83-year old man had his leg shot off at the knee. It was a memorable Christmas night… (The Siege of Charleston, 1861-1865 by E. Milby Burton, p 257-258, December 25, 1863)

An old gentleman named William Knighton, 83 years of age, was sitting by the fire on his hearth, had his right leg shot off below the knee, His sister-in-law -- a Miss Plane – also sitting by the fire, had her right foot severely crushed by a fragment of shell. (Charleston Daily Courier, Dec 28, 1863).

Mr. William Knighton mentioned in our report of casualties caused by the enemy’s fire on Friday, has since died from the effects of his wounds. (Charleston Daily Courier, Dec 29, 1863)

Miss Plane, the lady reported as injured from a shell on Christmas morning, died on Wednesday from the effects of the injuries received. (Charleston Daily Courier, Dec 31, 1863, as reported in The Daily Picayune, Jan 17, 1864)

German man wounded

One man, a German, whose name we could not learn, was wounded in the right hand by a stone from the middle of the street, torn up by a shell on Wednesday morning. (Charleston Daily Courier, Jan 14, 1864).

School Children

The St. Philip Street school-house remained untouched. A frame house adjoining it has nevertheless been hit by one of the shells, and fears were entertained for the safety of the school-house. Shells were flying round it constantly during the bombardment. The teachers, however, still keep the school open and the little girls and boys attended it in great numbers very regularly. (From The New York Herald, as reported in The Daily Picayune, Feb 12, 1864)

Mrs. Kennedy

One white woman, a Mrs. Kennedy, was seriously wounded in the leg about three o’clock Thursday morning. She was asleep when a shell entered her house and in passing through, shattered the bed posts, the pieces striking her on the leg, fracturing the bone. It was believed that amputation would be necessary. (Charleston Courier as reported in The Memphis Daily Appeal [Atlanta, GA]. March 8, 1864)

Nine killed. Men, women and children wounded

There have been lately two large fires in Charleston, caused by our shells. Deserters say the city is now divided into two districts, viz: 'in range' and 'out of range,' and that no other expression is used. Nine persons were killed a few nights since, and a large number wounded, including men, women, and children, and twelve homes burned to the ground. (Washington Republican, Feb 26, 1864, as reported in The Daily Picayune March 11, 1864)

Firemen injured

…the engine of the Phoenix Company was struck by a shell and blown to atoms, injuring several firemen (The Siege of Charleston, 1861-1865 by E. Milby Burton, p 259, from Schirmer Diary, May 13, 1864)

Colored woman killed

The firing since our last has been about as usual. Eighty-six shots have been fired from six P. M. Monday evening to six P. M. Tuesday, at Fort Sumter, and twenty-nine shots at the city, most of which were time fuse shells. A colored woman, named Adstine Rostersats (? hard to read the name) was mortally wounded about 12 M. Tuesday, by the fragment of a fuse shell, and died about four o’clock Tuesday evening. (Charleston Daily Courier, Aug 31, 1864).

Child’s arm shattered

Forty-two shells have been fired at the city since our last report. A child’s arm was badly shattered by one of these missiles. (Charleston Daily Courier, Sept 2, 1864)

Man and two children wounded

In the city three persons, one man and two children, were wounded by pieces of shell. One child was severely wounded. (Charleston Daily Courier, Sept 9, 1864)

Colored man killed

A colored barber named William, was struck in the head by a Parrott shell Friday morning and instantly killed. (Charleston Daily Courier, Sept 10, 1864)

Men and women wounded

During the twenty-four hours ending six o’clock Wednesday evening eighty-eight shots were reported fired into the city. A number of casualties occurred, but mostly from flying bricks or splinters.
Mr. A. W. Ladd was severely and dangerously wounded in the left shoulder by a fragment of shell, which exploded in the building where he was writing. Three other young men in the same room and building as Mr. Ladd, very narrowly escaped being killed. The shell passed through the desk of one (Mr. C. J. Porcher) just as he had risen to close a shutter of the window against the heat of the sun. It went under the desk, passing through the legs of Mr. W. Lambert, breaking the leg of the chair and leaving Mr. W with only a slight bruise on the ankle.
Another shell, which exploded in a building, wounded four females of the family of Mr. John Burkmyer, one of them seriously, breaking her collar bone, besides inflicting several slight bruises.
A man by the name of Collins, a laborer, had his leg taken off Wednesday evening by the explosion of a shell in the building in which he resided. (all from the Charleston Daily Courier of Sept 29, 1864)

There were some brave and honorable men on the Federal side, but bombarding civilians for 18 months was terrible.

1,629 posted on 03/25/2004 9:14:38 AM PST by rustbucket
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To: #3Fan
Tens of thousands of soldiers die of starvation at a southern POW camp and it's all Lincoln's fault for not giving into the demands of those acting as terrorists.

For the benefit of the lurkers, here is an admission of the Federal Commissioner of Exchange, General Benjamin "Beast" Butler concerning prisoner exchange:

In case the Confederate authorities should yield to the argument...and formally notify me that their slaves captured in our uniform would be exchanged as other soldiers were, and that they were ready to return to us all our prisoners at Andersonville and elsewhere in exchange for theirs, I had determined, with the consent of the lieutenant-general [Grant], as a last resort, in order to prevent exchange, to demand that the outlawry against me should be formally reversed and apologized for before I would further negotiate the exchange of prisoners.

It may be remarked here that the rebels were willing enough to exchange prisoners at this time, man for man, were we to permit it to be done.


1,630 posted on 03/25/2004 9:22:27 AM PST by rustbucket
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To: #3Fan
...the scale of the south's murder of thousand of POWs by not releasing them is ridiculous

From US Secretary of War's tabulation after the war:

Deaths of Federals in Confederate prisons: 22,576
Deaths of Confederates in Federal prisons: 26,436

1,631 posted on 03/25/2004 9:30:09 AM PST by rustbucket
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To: rustbucket
If you take out #3's repeats, this thread is not nearly so large as it appears.

Well, that probably puts us back to about 800 posts or so.

1,632 posted on 03/25/2004 11:35:14 AM PST by 4CJ (||) OUR sins put Him on that cross - HIS love for us kept Him there. (||)
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To: rustbucket
the scale of the south's murder of thousand of POWs by not releasing them is ridiculous

#3Fan's heroes are judged guilty by his own words.

1,633 posted on 03/25/2004 11:36:55 AM PST by 4CJ (||) OUR sins put Him on that cross - HIS love for us kept Him there. (||)
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To: nolu chan
Let us not forget the trauma of the failed suicide attempt by jumping out the basement window of his mother's apartment.

LOL! He also seems to have abandoned his Big Chief notebooks for a more modern alternative, namely freerepublic threads since the written record of his life concluded. I did hear Will Ferrell is making a movie based on him though!

1,634 posted on 03/25/2004 12:19:45 PM PST by GOPcapitalist
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Comment #1,635 Removed by Moderator

To: #3Fan
you wouldn't believe ANYTHING anyone else posted if it fell on you.

IGNORANCE is BLISS for you-stay that way.

you want proof?? go read THE OTHER LINCOLN.

OH, i forgot. you do NOT believe BOOKS.worse luck for you.

FOOLS like YOU ask for READILY available PROOF, when they should remain SILENT!

otoh, it shows EVERYONE here how out of touch with reality you are. that's a GOOD THING!

free dixie,sw

1,636 posted on 03/25/2004 2:27:23 PM PST by stand watie (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. -T. Jefferson)
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To: #3Fan
RAVE ON, fool.<P.free dixie,sw
1,637 posted on 03/25/2004 2:27:56 PM PST by stand watie (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. -T. Jefferson)
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To: #3Fan
LINKS???

you RWALLY believe things on the worldwidewierd just because they are THERE??? but you don't believe what's in BOOKS?????

rave on, fool. you're off your meds again, aren't you.<P.free dixie,sw

1,638 posted on 03/25/2004 2:30:28 PM PST by stand watie (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. -T. Jefferson)
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To: #3Fan
nope. you will be BANNED, sooner than later, for posting RACIST stupidity.

i know for a fact that 2 FReepers have already reported your racist comments.

free dixie,sw

1,639 posted on 03/25/2004 2:31:58 PM PST by stand watie (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. -T. Jefferson)
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To: Gianni
THANKS!

you said it better than i did.<P.free dixie,sw

1,640 posted on 03/25/2004 2:33:49 PM PST by stand watie (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. -T. Jefferson)
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