Free Republic

re: I sometimes wonder where conservative Catholics (such as those on FR who are so insistent that the problem does not exist outside “liberal dioceses”) go to church. The Twilight Zone, perhaps?

They go to a less radical church, it’s still liberal, but they don’t think so, because they compare it to the more radical liberals. From the view of Catholic traditon/antiquity, Catholic reality, they are both liberals. You are 100% on!

re:Jesus of Nazareth both volumes are excellent.

How does it compare with Life of Christ by Fulton Sheen (Original)

from: http://literarycompass.blogspot.com/2006/12/fulton-sheens-life-of-christ.html

How does a person combat the commercialism of Christmas? Now that Advent is upon us, what can we do to keep focused on the Incarnation rather than on the carnage of Christmas shopping? Here is one suggestion: I love to begin Advent by reading the first twenty pages or so of Fulton Sheen's Life of Christ. Here is an excerpt:

Of every other child that is born into the world, friends can say that it resembles his mother. This was the first instance in time that anyone could say that the mother resembled the Child. This is the beautiful paradox of the Child who made His mother; the mother, too, was only a child. It was also the first time in the history of the world that anyone could ever think of heaven as being anywhere else than "somewhere up there"; when the Child was in her arms, Mary now looked down to Heaven.

In the filthiest place in the world, a stable, Purity was born. He, Who was later to be slaughtered by men acting as beasts, was born among beasts. He, Who would call Himself the "living Bread descended from Heaven," was laid in a manger, literally, a place to eat. Centuries before, the Jews had worshipped the golden calf, and the Greeks, the ass. Men bowed down before them as before God. The ox and the ass now were present to make their innocent reparation, bowing down before their God.

Until the peoples of Latin America realize that their wealth is in the Faith, and they return TO LIVE as Catholics, they will continue on the same path of poverty, immorality, illegitimate births, abortions, and crime.

Theodore Roosevelt when he paid a visit to South America at the turn of the 20th century said: “While these countries remain Catholic,” he said, “we will not be able to dominate them.”

Put another way, as long as the people are fallen away Cathoics, CINO’s, Protestants, pagans, athiests, and Marxists, they can be easily dominated. As is the case today.

Outside of the Catholic Faith, and what little remains of the Catholic culture in Latin America, I see little to be proud of. Without the Faith, Latin America is just another Africa.

That’s just the book picture. Can you give me some examples of where he shows his “ability to teach very profound things in a very accessible way”, in this book?

Give me some quotes.

re; “I think the Holy Father has shown he has many outstanding qualities not least his ability to teach very profound things in a very accessible way. “

Really? I think the complete opposite. i think that the Holy Father (and JPII also) makes the simple complicated, the complete opposite of what you believe. Can you give me some examples of where he shows his “ability to teach very profound things in a very accessible way”.

Article is all symbolism's, but no substance. What exactly does 6 years of “great dynamism” and “intense evangelization”, equal? The Catholic Church is teaching that they do not seek to convert the Protestants, the Eastern Orthodox, nor the Jews, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or even the Voodoo. AND no one can deny that they have done nothing but dumb down the few Catholics that still go to mass. So, who exactly is it that they are evangelizing?

The few practicing Catholics, are living in some altered state of reality, if they think this article says anything.

Article is all symbolism's, but no substance. What exactly does 6 years of “great dynamism” and “intense evangelization”, equal? The Catholic Church is teaching that they do not seek to convert the Protestants, the Eastern Orthodox, nor the Jews, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or even the Voodoo. AND no one can deny that they have done nothing but dumb down the few Catholics that still go to mass. So, who exactly is it that they are evangelizing?

Are the few practicing Catholics are living in some altered state of reality, if they think this article says anything.

St. Augustine:
“If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that “they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.” There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief.” (On the Soul and Its Origin 3, 13)

re:The Council of Trent taught dogmatically that either baptism or the desire of it was required for salvation.

Trent taught that either baptism or the desire of it was required for justification (not salvation as you wrote).There's a big difference.

The problem with baptism of desire, is that it splitting hairs, asking the question: What happens to a person who is pre-justified before receiving the water of baptism, and dies in that condition? St. Augustine called it the vortex of confusion, to think that God could give the grace for conversion of the hardened sinner, then could not keep the person alive long enough to have any passerby pour the water and say the few words.

Anyhow, baptism of desire does not apply here to this thread, since we are talking about baptized Catholics who have left the Church

Who is Hilton?

They lost the faith, that is why they left the Church, it is plain and simple, they preferred the darkness. One is not a real Catholic who lives the faith because they read the right books and go to mass. One is a real Catholic because they respond to God's Grace, PERIOD. A sinner instantly looses sanctifying grace, and outside of the Church there is no sanctifying grace:

Catholic Doctrine on Grace

Outside of the Catholic Church there is no sanctifying grace:

Although, predisposing or prevenient graces are given to anyone of those outside the Catholic Church, so that they can turn to God, change their lives and enter the Catholic Church, for without these graces no one would ever convert. However, outside the Catholic Church no sinner can attain sanctifying grace, the state justice wherein one can receive in their soul the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. They can't receive sanctifying grace because they are in a perpetual state of mortal sin, since there is no way for them to receive remission of sin outside of the Church.

DOGMA:

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra: “With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation NOR REMISSION OF SIN…”

They lost the faith, that is why they left the Church, it is palin and simple, they prefereed the darkness. One is not a real Catholic who lives the faith because they read the right books and go to mass. One is a real Catholic because they respond to God's Grace, PERIOD. A sinner instantly looses sanctifying grace, and outside of the Church there is no sanctifying grace:

Catholic Doctrine on Grace

Outside of the Catholic Church there is no sanctifying grace:

Although, predisposing or prevenient graces are given to anyone of those outside the Catholic Church, so that they can turn to God, change their lives and enter the Catholic Church, for without these graces no one would ever convert. However, outside the Catholic Church no sinner can attain sanctifying grace, the state justice wherein one can receive in their soul the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. They can't receive sanctifying grace because they are in a perpetual state of mortal sin, since there is no way for them to receive remission of sin outside of the Church.

DOGMA:

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra: “With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation NOR REMISSION OF SIN…”

Compare the dogmatic decree of 1441 Pope Eugene IV’s, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, AND and “Christ Among Us”, by Fr. Anthony Wilhelm, the major religious text for Catholic High School students and for adult education in America. First published in 1967 by Paulist Press, it has sold over 2,000,000 copies)

Oil and Vinegar, the two will never mix.

Olive Oil Catholicism

Among adults there are few saved, because of the sins of the flesh....With exception of those who die in childhood, most men will be damned. (St. Remigius of Rheims)

If you only knew the women who will go to Hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it. ( St. John Vianney)

They who are to be saved as Saints, and wish to be saved as imperfect souls, shall not be saved. (Pope St. Gregory the Great)

A multitude of souls fall into the depths of Hell. (St. Anthony Mary Claret - It has been revealed that on the day St. Bernard their also died 79,999 other people, and of this total of 80,000 who died, only St. Bernard and two other monks were saved. So out of 80,000 dead, 79,999 went to Hell.

So vast a number of miserable souls perish, and so comparatively few are saved! (St. Philip Neri)

Scarcely anyone is saved. (St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori)
_________________________________________________________

Vinegar Catholicism

“There are other ways of being united to God besides baptism. Most of the human race has never heard of or cannot believe in Christ or baptism. As the world population increases, Christians become proportionately less. The Christian life begun by baptism is becoming more and more the privilege and responsibility of a few. Most of humanity is united with God in other ways. (op. cit., p. 199).
Many men come to God in this way through other, nonChristian religions ... So, too, one who cannot believe in a personal God, through no fault of his own, but is committed to following his conscience, receives God’s grace pre sence God lives within many unbelievers, though they may oppose him or those who try to work for him. (p.200).
Theology has no complete answer as to how, or even whether anyone may be damned forever.
(p. 289, Christ Among Us, by Fr. Anthony Wilhelm. The major religious text for Catholic High School students and for adult education in America. First published in 1967 by Paulist Press, it has sold over 2,000,000 copies)
unedited original:

DESIRE AND DECEPTION 119
The major religious text for Catholic High School students and for adult education in America was Christ Among Us, by the then Fr. Anthony Wilhelm, C.S.P. First published in 1967 by Paulist Press (ah, our old friends!), it has sold over 2,000,000 copies, although publication was switched to the secular firm of Harper and Row after the Vatican insisted Archbishop Gerety’s imprimatur be removed a few years ago. Your author will now share with his readers its insights on the question of salvation:
There are other ways of being united to God besides baptism. Most of the human race has never heard of or cannot believe in Christ or baptism. As the world population increases, Christians become proportionately less. The Christian life begun by baptism is becoming more and more the privilege and responsibility of a few. Most of humanity is united with God in other ways. (op. cit., p. 199).
Many men come to God in this way through other, nonChristian religions ... So, too, one who cannot believe in a personal God, through no fault of his own, but is committed to following his conscience, receives God’s grace pre
sence God lives within many unbelievers, though they may
oppose him or those who try to work for him. (p.200).
Theology has no complete answer as to how, or even whether anyone may be damned forever. (p. 289).
This heretical viewpoint, as even Rahner observed, has no basis in
Revelation. It is therefore all. Yet it is
dominant in most sectors of the Church today. It is an error which has
slithered all the way to the top, and carried in its train either denial or
trivialization of all other dogmas. So complete is its hold that most
Catholic commentary on earlier writers is informed by it, 6 la Brodrick.
Your author cites as a case in point the edition of Ven. Walter
Hilton quoted earlier, which, you may recall, records Hilton’s
opposition to the then novel notion that belief did not matter with
regard to salvation. Translator M. L. Del Masto’s footnotes on p. 350
to that section quoted are most revealing:
1. The position Hilton refutes here is now the orthodox one and goes under the name Baptism of Desire, though in his own time it was, at best, a probable opinion [probable? Your author must beg leave to differ considering the weight of the quoted authorities in the earlier chapters of this book]. I

Excerpt from: ACERBO NIMIS - ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X ON TEACHING CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE - 1905 (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_15041905_acerbo-nimis_en.html)

"The enemy has, indeed, long been prowling about the fold and attacking it with such subtle cunning that now, more than ever before, the prediction of the Apostle to the elders of the Church of Ephesus seems to be verified: "I know that . . . fierce wolves will get in among you, and will not spare the flock."[1] Those who still are zealous for the glory of God are seeking the causes and reasons for this decline in religion. Coming to a different explanation, each points out, according to his own view, a different plan for the protection and restoration of the kingdom of God on earth. But it seems to Vs, Venerable Brethren, that while we should not overlook other considerations, We are forced to agree with those who hold that the chief cause of the present indifference and, as it were, infirmity of soul, and the serious evils that result from it, is to be found above all in ignorance of things divine. This is fully in accord with what God Himself declared through the Prophet Osee: "And there is no knowledge of God in the land. Cursing and lying and killing and theft and adultery have overflowed: and blood hath touched blood. Thereafter shall the land mourn, and everyone that dwelleth in it shall languish."

2. It is a common complaint, unfortunately too well founded, that there are large numbers of Christians in our own time who are entirely ignorant of those truths necessary for salvation. And when we mention Christians, We refer not only to the masses or to those in the lower walks of life - for these find some excuse for their ignorance in the fact that the demands of their harsh employers hardly leave them time to take care of themselves or of their dear ones - but We refer to those especially who do not lack culture or talents and, indeed, are possessed of abundant knowledge regarding things of the world but live rashly and imprudently with regard to religion. It is hard to find words to describe how profound is the darkness in which they are engulfed and, what is most deplorable of all, how tranquilly they repose there"

---------------------------------------------

“They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, they would no doubt have remained with us; but that they may be manifest, that they are not all of us”. (1 John 2-9)

----------------------------------------------------

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Excerpt from: ACERBO NIMIS - ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X ON TEACHING CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE - 1905 (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_15041905_acerbo-nimis_en.html)

"The enemy has, indeed, long been prowling about the fold and attacking it with such subtle cunning that now, more than ever before, the prediction of the Apostle to the elders of the Church of Ephesus seems to be verified: "I know that . . . fierce wolves will get in among you, and will not spare the flock."[1] Those who still are zealous for the glory of God are seeking the causes and reasons for this decline in religion. Coming to a different explanation, each points out, according to his own view, a different plan for the protection and restoration of the kingdom of God on earth. But it seems to Vs, Venerable Brethren, that while we should not overlook other considerations, We are forced to agree with those who hold that the chief cause of the present indifference and, as it were, infirmity of soul, and the serious evils that result from it, is to be found above all in ignorance of things divine. This is fully in accord with what God Himself declared through the Prophet Osee: "And there is no knowledge of God in the land. Cursing and lying and killing and theft and adultery have overflowed: and blood hath touched blood. Thereafter shall the land mourn, and everyone that dwelleth in it shall languish."

2. It is a common complaint, unfortunately too well founded, that there are large numbers of Christians in our own time who are entirely ignorant of those truths necessary for salvation. And when we mention Christians, We refer not only to the masses or to those in the lower walks of life - for these find some excuse for their ignorance in the fact that the demands of their harsh employers hardly leave them time to take care of themselves or of their dear ones - but We refer to those especially who do not lack culture or talents and, indeed, are possessed of abundant knowledge regarding things of the world but live rashly and imprudently with regard to religion. It is hard to find words to describe how profound is the darkness in which they are engulfed and, what is most deplorable of all, how tranquilly they repose there"

---------------------------------------------

“They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, they would no doubt have remained with us; but that they may be manifest, that they are not all of us”. (1 John 2-9)

----------------------------------------------------

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

re:So you are using Vatican I terminology only. Hmmmm, so Pope Benedict’s terminology does not suffice for you is that correct.

The definition of the Church that I posted is the one always used by the Church. I only referenced Vatican I and Pope Pius XII because English speaking Catholics on FR were not familiar with the definition when I first posted it. I got tired of explaining it, and so, I always put next to it that it's from Fist Vatican Council and Pope Pius XII. The definition always used by the church. As far a Pope Benedict XVIth’s definition, I don't know that it's any different, perhaps you could post it.

As far as Cerularis’s excommunication, it's gone through 1000+ years uncontested. What you write I have to assume you are just winging, unless you post some sources from the last 1000 + years. Besides, it does not change the fact that the Eastern Orthodox are schismatics and outside of the Church, where there is no salvation.

The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Blessed Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

“It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.

re: certainly you are not rejecting that maybe the Patriarch is in purgatory. Who knows? which means you don’t know.

If a person is objectively excommunicated, they are objectively outside of the Church, and thus they are objectively in Hell. Purgatory is only for those saved, those who die as Catholics. Excommunication is no little thing. If Abp. Lefebvre is validly, canonically excommunicated (his excommunication was not lifted by B16), then he is in Hell. Excommunications are not subjective.

re: So my argument was not a strawman as you are canonically and technically incorrect regarding “Maronites, Melkites” being Roman Catholic.

Very much a strawman, and so is this posting above. Here's what I wrote: "What I said was that Cronos is a Schismatic Eastern Orthodox, not a member of the true Church of Jesus Christ is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church. The Ruthenians, Melkites, Maronites are members of the Roman Church".

I said they were members of the Roman Church. That is the name of the Catholic Church. There are different rites, but is not canonically and technically incorrect to call the “Maronites, Melkites” part of the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church. That is the description of the Catholic Church used in the 1st Vatican Coucil, and by Pius XII in Mystici Corporus.

re:I think it is improper to call The Eastern Orthodox schismatics. The mutual excommunications that were levied towards each other were lifed by the Pope on the Catholic side and the Patriarck of Constantinopile on the Orthodox side.

They are schismatics, and thus I call them what they are, it is called reality. I do that to distinguish them from the Eastern Catholics. The "mutual lifting of the excommunications was a canard,a fraud, a deception, it is a meaningless, "nice gesture". I did a whole thread on it.

The LIFTING THE ANATHEMAS HOAX

(DECEMBER 7, 1965)- THE ‘LIFTING’ OF THE ANATHEMAS-

On 7 December 1965, Cardinal Jan Willebrands read to the bishops of Vatican II the declaration of Pope Paul VI lifting the excommunication that the Envoy of Pope Leo IX had imposed on the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, Michael Cerularius, in 1054. At the same time, in the Patriarchal Cathedral of Saint George in Constantinople, the synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate ‘lifted’ the anathemas imposed on the papal ambassadors in 1054 by Patriarch Michael Cerularius and the patriarchal synod of Constantinople and subsequently ratified and adopted by all orthodox churches.

This document above of no juridical value whatsoever, just a nice gesture is all it is. Michael Cerularius remains an excommunicated.

1) For one, the Patriarch of Constantinople has no authority to bind any of the other Orthodox Churches, as a matter of fact his Patriarchy consists of only 3.5 million people.

2) Pope Paul VI has no authority to ‘lift” the excommunication of Michael Cerularius, since he died almost 1000 years ago. You can't “lift” the excommunication of a dead man, he is already in hell for all eternity. It's a different matter if a pope were to undertake to disprove the validity of an excommunication (like Joan of Arc), but that is not what Paul VI did, he just simply signed the declaration above.

The person, Cronos, who is detracting against my name, calling me a troll, is not a Roman Catholic, yet as I said, he continually is posting saying he is a Catholic. He is not a Roamn Catholic, he is a schismatic Eastern Orthodox. I don’t know why he feels the need to portray himself as a Roman Catholic, nevertheless, it is a lie.

re:You consistently elevate your opinions to a status of infallibility.

Strawman. I didn’t say what you claim. You are totally off base here. What I said was that Cronos is a Schismatic Eastern Orthodox, not a member of the true Church of Jesus Christ is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church. The Ruthenians, Melkites, Maronites are members of the Roman Church.