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Its also a warning not to focus on how things look in the world *today*. Things change in unexpected ways...

Ahem.

"That said, what do you think of the Guardian quote?"

I think you should reflect first, and post second.

I agree with your analysis. Even in refugee camps under constant artillery bombardment women can and will have babies. Nature will be served, and this is true for the young women described in this article as well. If state handouts change their attitudes towards the process, then maybe the handouts should stop, or be radically altered.

That said, what do you think of the Guardian quote? I sometimes wonder if a computer has been programmed to spit out this stuff. How exactly is having a child out of wedlock and on the dole the "moral" choice? What does "moral" mean to the author? I'm not sure I want to know what "reasonable" means to him or her.

Huh? I'm just commenting on an event, based on my years and years of peripheral contact with the Mounted Police. I'm sorry that the Commissioner and the Soliciter General didn't send me a dossier to share with the internet.

My Grandfather turned wrenches on Hurricanes during the battle of Britain. He said that you could go for days without seeing a Spit.

I think Supermarine had better PR guys than Hawker.:)

The RCMP is famous for its stings. My bet is that CSIS found these guys on the internet, and from the local muslims who got bumped out of their mosque when they took it over. Not everybody (or even most people) were ready for, or interested in the wahabbist power hour they set up.

After that it would have gone to RCMP, who would have controlled the availability of the bomb materials to them, gathered up evidence of intent, and figured out who was who in the organization. After enough gathering, they opened the trap door, and here we are.

Lots of our domestic terrorists find that "Mother Mountie" is a very generous old bird when it comes to useful terror toys. Unfortunately she isn't really to be trusted, and has some very hard men at her disposal. This is an old game, and it just got a few more losers.

"When everyone is dead the Great Game is finished. Not before."

Kipling was no fool, this is par for the course. My money is on Indian counter-intellegence, but the Chinese are a very tough group of players too. We will have to see.

I'm consistantly impressed by foriegn military's and design firms who make do with less. Sometimes they produce junk (North Korean Airframes), and sometimes they produce things which must be taken very seriously indeed (Russian Airframes, or Indian fighter doctrine and training).

Gradually, it seems to me we're seeing more of the second than the first. Nothing to panic about, but certainly something to factor into our worldview. Changing world out there.

You can be bold, or you can be old. You cannot be old and bold.:)

Just a piece of police wisdom from my Dad. Too bad it didn't filter down to whereverville Iraq.

My store, the imaginatively named "Gun Store", has wonderful staff, a nice selection, and also houses a book store and a barber shop! I can dump a whole paycheck there!

Shopping at Wal-mart for guns? I'm not big on wading through big people wearing their pajamas at 4:00pm on a Monday to get to the sporting goods.:(

I'd rather pay a little more.

Thank you very much for your summary. It's very insightful. What a shame you didn't post earlier. A lot of this thread wasn't neccessary.

Well, you hit the bottom with a clang didn't you? At least you've dropped your bad P.D Wodehouse impression for something else. What is you new guise? My best guess is a severely agitated Down Syndrome patient. Should you need new "zingers" of the caliber you seem to favor, let me recommend a collection of "yo mama" jokes from the mid-90's. I think you'll find them much to your taste, and suitable to your....approach to debate shall we say.

http://www.ahajokes.com/yo_mama_jokes.html

At any rate, thank you very kindly for discrediting your own position with consistantly contradictory and incoherent arguements. It's been a slice.

Good, you like money. If I gave you a nickel would you read and address my posts?

The central point of the last one was a response to the clear fact that ethnic nationalism was the source of your political opinions, and that you lack a basic understanding and appreciation for democratic freedoms. There might have been a tiny bit about your schizophernic rationale for the piece of legaslation we've been discussing all night.

As for my "stamp of approval", I'm glad you don't need it, because you aren't going to get it.

Well, we're at the root of this little matter now aren't we?

To recap, you freely admit that this isn't designed to vunerable protect people from abusive, lying, bad-mouthing Christians. We have no *real* evidence that they are any of these things, or that any of those are crimes even if they were, but let's let that pass.

Instead, you admit that it's to protect the delicate, endangered 80% Hindu majority. The plight of these embattered billions, perched on the VERY EDGE of absorbion by the rapatious Christians and their (curiously ineffective) trickery is truly a heart-rending one. They need to protected from a non-threat, which is a shot of double-think so potent that would have knocked old George for a loop if was around to hear it.

There is no threat to your way of life, and you know it.
In the absence of that threat,we are left with only one other real possibility. You are simply bigoted, and unprepared to tolerate the freedoms that make a democracy worthy of its name. The rest of your posts in this thread seem to support my hypothesis quite nicely. So far, you've indicated that you can't tolerate socialists, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, poor people, free speech, religious freedom and Brahmins (snooty). I didn't re-read carefully, so I might have missed someone else you can't abide by. On the pro side, you do seem to like money and HBO.

Not only do you have problems with the most basic freedoms issued to members of democratic state, you salivate over the chance to use state power to suppress them. After you admitted there was no risk or threat.

What is there for you on the Freerepublic? Everything you've said in this thread would make the average Freeper vomit.

My mistake, #183.

Apparently you're laughing so hard you can't still can't address my question from #182. Drink some water, and give it another shot.

I'm not sure you understand my point.

Threepwood: If Christian missionaries are ineffective, why do you want to restrict them? Why do you care?

Rajk3008: CHRISTIAN MISSIONARIES ARE SO INEFFECTIVE THAT RECONVERSIONS ARE HAPPENING I AM GOING TO WATCH TV. ALSO YOU MADE A LOT SWEEPING GENERALIZATIONS ABOUT INDIAN CULTURE WHICH ARE NOW INVISIBLE!

Threepwood: ?!

1. If only the poorest, most desperate people are becoming Christians, why exactly do you care? If they're just tricking the stupid, stupid missionaries for food and money, so much the better for you. Let us waste our time and money on the desperate. That's what we do. It's not our fault you happen to have a lot of desperate people on hand.

2. Go find a point where I made any disparaging comment about the doctrines, or even the adherents of Hinduism. I'll be waiting a while, because I've made no such comment.

3. The fact that educated people tend to stick with their orginal faiths means exactly nothing in this discussion. Also, I suspect religious mobility is a lot more serious a problem than you let on. Otherwise, why would we be discussing this?

I think the basic point here is the political wieght of conversions in the Indian context. You're quite right that these two papers might be biased, and unworthy of respect. The only problem is that other news sources seem to agree with them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3166126.stm
http://www.cbc.ca/tapestry/comingsoon.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1639245.stm
http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pIe/ie20011101/nat12.html (Check the ending out! A mass Buddhists conversion ceremony is a Christian conspiracy! We're apparently VERY crafty.)

You happen to have a bunch of people around who spend a lot of time handling crap, and who have a interest in bailing out of the Hindu faith(s), and bailing into Christianity, Islam, and Buddhists. That seems to be the consensus. Your also correct that under stress, some people abandon their values in a shameful way, and that sometimes thats just the way it is.

That said, this seems to boils down to "Geez, there are a lot of shit-lifters out there, and if they become muslims we're in the soup". Not the most noble one ever, but given the realities of our world, one that makes sense. Its going to have to be ok.

Exactly what that has to do with Christians, however, is quite another question. If you can provide proof that Christianity will destroy your way of life, than you should provide it! You freely admit that Christians are 1-2% of the population, no threat in demographic terms to anyone. Give us a rationale for the threat we pose, and why 80% of the Indian population needs to be protected from us! For that matter, explain exactly what difference does it make if all the Dalits rush off and become Buddists? The Tibetans are Buddhists and they can even respond violently to the complete destruction of their culture!

If you're concerned that conversions will lead to sectarian violence like during partition, I might accept that. If its really based on "We don't want to lose our shit-lifters" or "we won't tolerate other beliefs, even when they aren't a threat" though you've got some pretty serious issues to cope with. When I consider the rise of the RSS and the JHP (the deep thinkers who uncovered the Buddist/Christian conspricy earlier!)I suspect that the sentiments behind this aren't as simple, or as appealing as you let on.

That's interesting, but I don't see what it has to do with restricting the freedom of conscience for hundreds of millions of people. Which is the point of this entire discussion.

The Indian state probably can do this, but don't expect a pat on the back. It's low and grubby, and probably has it roots in the seedier aspects of Indian culture.