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James 1:1-8 in context
scripter

Posted on 01/31/2003 12:21:22 PM PST by scripter

Introduction: There are some who quote James 1:5 in a way that pulls it out of its intended context and changes the original intent. That is, if you lack wisdom, ask God. While it's perfectly fine to ask God for wisdom according to the context and orginal intent of the author, James 1:5 is not the verse to claim for general wisdom as it is specific to wisdom in trials. I believe the Bible teaches that when we ask for wisdom, we ask with a selfless heart and that in granting the wisdom God may be glorified. There are limits on why God grants wisdom, such as if asked for selfish reasons. And pulling James 1:5 out of context puts no such limitations on what or how we request wisdom.

In verse 1 James uses the same word Paul used in Romans 1:1 and calls himself a servant of God the Father and God the Son. The word for servant can be defined as:

James addresses his letter to the twelve tribes scattered abroad. Literally James addresses the letter to the twelve tribes in the Diaspora, which is the technical word for the Jews who lived outside Palestine. There were three major times the Jews were forcibly taken out of their own land and compelled to live as exiles in foreign lands.

The first removal occurred when the people of the Northern Kingdom (whose capital was in Samaria) were conquered by the Assyrians and were carried away into captivity in Assyria (2 Kings 17:23 and 1 Chronicles 5:26).

The second removal occurred around 580 B.C. when the Babylonians conquered the Southern Kingdom (whose capital was Jerusalem), and carried the best of the people away to Babylon (2 Kings 24:14-16 and Psalm 137).

The third removal took place around 63 B.C., when Pompey conquered the Jews and took Jerusalem and many Jews were transplanted to Rome as slaves.

Still, far greater numbers of Jews left on their own free will, looking for more comfortable living conditions. Jews moved to Egypt and Syria. Alexander the Great moved 2000 Jewish families to Lydia and Phrygia. Thus, Jews were spread all over the world.

The Greek geographer, Strabo wrote: "It is hard to find a spot in the world which is not occupied and dominated by Jews." The Jewish Historian, Josephus wrote: "There is no city, no tribe, whether Greek or barbarian, in which Jewish law and Jewish customs have not taken root."

James continues with his introduction, saying: "Joy to you." Even though you are scattered among the nations and facing trials of many kinds, do not be robbed of your joy.

Therefore, in verse 1 James wrote:

To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations. Joy to you!

James never suggests to his audience that Christianity would be an easy road. In verse 2 we see just that with his use of the word trials. The Greek word for trials means: trials or testing directed towards an end. What is that end? He who is tested should emerge stronger and purer from the testing. The attached verb means strengthening and purifying.

The root word for trials can be used for trials or temptations (internal), with trials an external meaning, such as the adversity his readers are experiencing. With the external meaning, the word is used especially to refer to trials of persecution (1 Peter 4:12).

James says to consider it pure joy, or consider it all joy when we experience trials of many kinds. He doesn't say to be joyous for the trial but in the trial. The verb translated face might more literally be expressed as "fall into," much as the poor man "fell among robbers" (Luke 10:30).

In The Letters of James & Peter,pp 42-43, William Barclay wrote:

All kinds of experiences will come to us. There will be the test of sorrows and the disappointments which seek to take our faith away. There will be the test of the seductions which seek to lure us from the right way. There will be tests of the dangers, the sacrifices, the unpopularity which the Christian way must so often involve. But they are not meant to make us fall; they are meant to make us soar. They are not meant to defeat us; they are meant to be defeated. They are not meant to make us weaker; they are meant to make us stronger. Therefore we should not bemoan them; we should rejoice in them. The Christian is like the athlete. The heavier the course of training he undergoes, the more he is glad, because he knows that it is fitting him all the better for victorious effort.

James uses an interesting word for describing the testing process. It's the word for sterling coinage (genuine unalloyed money). Meeting the testing in the right way will produce much more than patience or perseverance. The word means the ability to turn testing into greatness and to glory.

To summarize verses 1-3 using the expanded Greek words and phrases:

To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations. Joy to you! Consider it pure joy when you fall into many trials because you know that the testing of your faith is directed towards an end, which when met in the right way will strengthen and purify you, and turn into greatness and glory.

Something that amazed the heathen during the persecution centuries was that the martyrs didn't die grimly. It's been told that a martyr was smiling in the flames so they asked him at what he was smiling. He responded: "I saw the glory of God and was glad." That's the type of character generated when we meet the trial in the right way, it produces greatness and glory.

Meeting the trial in the right way makes us mature. The Greek word for mature is teleios and means perfection for a given end. A sacrificial animal is teleios if it is fit to offer to God. A scholar is teleious if he is mature. A person is teleios if he is full grown.

Meeting the trial in the right way makes us complete. The word means perfect in every part. In meeting the trial in the right way we eventually remove weaknesses and imperfections.

Meeting the trial in the right way makes us lacking nothing. The word means deficient in nothing and has been used in the following ways: the defeat of an army, the giving up of a struggle and the failure to reach a standard that should have been reached.

Jesus taught that the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure so valuable that a man would sell everything he owns to obtain it and would do so "in his joy" (Matt 13:44). Paul said we "rejoice in our sufferings" because "suffering produces perseverance" (Romans 5:3). Peter said Christians should "greatly rejoice" in "all kinds of trials" (1 Peter 1:6). Perseverence isn't the end result, it's the lifestyle by which the Christian attains maturity.

To summarize verses 1-4 using the expanded Greek words and phrases:

To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations. Joy to you! Consider it pure joy when you fall into many trials because you know that the testing of your faith is directed towards an end, which when met in the right way will strengthen and purify you, and turn into greatness and glory. The ability to turn testing into greatness and glory must finish its work so that you may be perfect for a given end, with weaknesses and imperfections gone, deficient in nothing.

During the trial, if you're deficient in the wisdom to meet the trial in the right way, ask God. James speaks of the period of testing before perseverance has completed its work. During such testing, if anyone lacks or is deficient in wisdom to meet the trial in the right way, he may have it by asking.

Wisdom is not just acquired information but practical insight with spiritual implications (Prov 1:2-4; 2:10-15; 4:5-9; 9:10-12). With James' Jewish background, wisdom is a practical thing. It isn't philosophic speculation or intellectual knowledge, to James wisdom is concerned with the business of living. Wisdom is "knowledge of the things human and divine" as defined by the Stoics.

According to The Expositors Bible Commentary, volume 12, pp. 168-169:

The type of Greek conditional sentence found here assumes that people facing trials do lack wisdom. What they need is not the speculative or theoretical wisdom of a philosophical system. It is the kinds of wisdom that we read about in Proverbs (passages listed above). It is the God-given understanding that enables a person to avoid the paths of wickedness and to live a life of righteousness. In this context wisdom is understanding the nature and purpose of trials and knowing how to meet them victoriously.

James lists two examples to illustrate the spiritual dynamics of trials. The first example: lacking wisdom (5-8), the second: lacking money (9-12).

Wisdom is a perfect first example because it is so important for Christians in trials. A cry from the heart of a Christian during trials might be "What do I do?" Look at 2 Chronicles 20:12 for a great example of a need for wisdom in trials.

We can ask God for the needed wisdom without fear, for God gives without holding our failures or lack of wisdom against us. Fortunately God doesn't respond by reminding us of our faults!

To summarize James 1:1-5 using the expanded Greek meaning of the words:

To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations. Joy to you! Consider it pure joy when you fall into many trials because you know that the testing of your faith is directed towards an end, which when met in the right way will strengthen and purify you, and turn into greatness and glory. The ability to turn testing into greatness and glory must finish its work so that you may be perfect for a given end, with weaknesses and imperfections gone, deficient in nothing. If any of you while enduring a trial are deficient in wisdom to meet the trial in the right way, continue to ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

The context tells us it's meeting the trial in the right way that makes Christians mature. If we lack the wisdom to do this, ask God. The context tells us:

The Greek sentence structure also tells us those falling into trials do indeed lack wisdom, again making the wisdom here specific to trials. Claiming this verse for anything other than wisdom to endure trials changes the original meaning, and understanding the original intent is required to have correct theology, no matter what the subject of study.

If you encounter a trial and don't have the wisdom for meeting the trial in the right way, ask God for help and don't doubt at all. The only barrier that exists is our faith. We shouldn't be afraid to ask God because of our lack of wisdom. James says he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown [horizontally] and tossed [vertically] by the wind. The image of being driven on the sea was common in Greek literature and occurs in Jewish wisdom texts, Isaiah 57:20, Ephesians 4:14 and the apocryphal Ecclesiasticus 33:2.

Jewish wisdom texts also condemn the double-minded or double-tongued person as does Psalm 12:2. Philosophers and Jewish sages abhorred the hypocrisy of saying one thing and living another, and speaking or living inconsistently.

James tells us not to be double-minded when we ask for wisdom. See James 4:8 as well. A double-minded man is a man with two souls or two minds inside him. One believes he'll receive wisdom and the other disbelieves.

When quoting Scripture we must be careful to quote in context. When requesting wisdom, God has given us the following verses and when used in context, are perfect for requesting wisdom.

If you want to properly claim Scripture it must be done in context, otherwise you can use Scripture to support just about anything.

If a Christian is going through trials they have James 1:5 as supporting Scripture when asking for wisdom to endure. The wisdom given in James 1:5 is specific to trials.

If a Christian desires wisdom for selfless reasons such as King Solomon requested to lead God's people, claim 1 Kings 3:5-14 (repeated in 2 Chronicles) in prayer.

The Matthew and Luke passages are in regards to selfless prayer. If a Christian asks for wisdom to advance the cause of Christ, to glorify God, or to further God's kingdom, Matthew and Luke are prime examples to use.

We must understand the original intent of the writer and the context to properly claim a verse in prayer.

General Bibliography

George M. Stulac, The IVP New Testament Commentary Series, James, IVP
Frank E. Gaebelein, The Expositors Bible Commentary, Volume 12, Zondervan
William Barclay, The Letters of James and Peter, Westminster Press
Walvoord & Zuck, The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, Victor Books
The Harper Collins Study Bible, NRSV, with Apocryphal books, Harper Collins
The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan
Craig S. Keener, The IVP Bible Background Commentary, New Testament, IVP


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To: Grig
And none of that shows that the author intended his advice on seeking wisdom to ONLY be valid advice in that context.

You are clearly demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of context.

If James intended to convey the idea that God will ONLY give wisdom to those who need it for enduring trials then he is wrong, if he didn't intend that limit you claim, then nothing I did changed the intended meaning.

James says if you need wisdom to endure a trial, ask God. I don't know how many times I've said this, he is not saying you can't ask God for wisdom in other areas, but the context here is specifically trials. You are missing the entire reason for context.

Previously I wrote:

I have no idea why you said that.

Because that is just what you have claimed (many, many times) James' intent was.

Never. Not once have I made that claim. If you think otherwise then please show me what post number. You obviously have not understood something I said.

Exactly why I can not agree that that James intended such a restriction as you claim. James applied a general principle (we can seek wisdom from God if we have faith) to a specific context (trials), but there is nothing to justify saying he intended that to be the ONLY context that principle can be applied to. Since trials is not the only context that it can be applied to, I assume James intended no such restriction.

You do not understand context. We agree the context is trials. We agree James said to ask for wisdom to endure trials, but you want to claim this verse to support asking God for wisdom for anything when the context is specifically trials. In doing so you're changing the intended meaning. There are other verses to claim for that promise, verses I've listed many times now but you're stuck on this one verse.

You have claimed over and over that James intended meaning was that a person can ONLY recieve wisdom from God to endure trial they are in, and no other kind of wisdom.

I have claimed James 1:5 is wisdom for trials and trials alone but have never said James denies wisdom for other areas. In fact I've stated over and over that James probably used Matt 7:7 as a basis for his thoughts, which could be wisdom for anything in the glory of God.

The context of the following verses is that God be glorifed, and it tells us to ask for whatever we want. Yet for some reason you want to pull James 1:5 out of the specific context of wisdom for trials and use that verse to support asking for wisdom. Why?

Matthew 7:7
Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

John 15:7
If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.

Luke 11:9
So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

No, that only shows you really don't understand my position. I agree that it's all tied to trials, but you claim his intent was that it's ONLY tied to trials and I say there is no justification to say his intent was so restricted.

I understand your position perfectly. I just don't know why you're stuck on this verse to request wisdom.

It would only be illogical if there was a clearly demonstrable intention by James to teach that a person can ONLY get wisdom from God to endure trials and for nothing else.

James doesn't have to do any such thing. The context tells us everything. For some reason you want to rip this verse out of its context.

You say since v3 is about trials, v5 is as well. I point to v4 and say it shows God wants us 'perfect and entire, wanting [lacking] nothing.' James' very next words are 'If any of ye lack wisdom...' so I fail to see how this counts as connecting unrelated words.

It isn't connecting unrelated words - that's what I've been saying all along. We agree the words are related. What you want to do is connect the words in one instance and divorce the words from their context in another so they can support whatever you want. And in doing so you remove the wisdom from the context of trials and change the intended meaning of James 1:5.

You said James intent was 'perfectly' represented by :"If any of you are in the midst of a trial and lack wisdom on how to properly deal with that trial, he may ask God for wisdom on how to properly deal with that trial ONLY"

Please provide the post number where I said that.

No, it wasn't an argument at all, it was a question. Who made the choice to use that kind of Greek conditional sentance, James, or somebody else?

That's a really pathetic question. I've told you the thousands of manuscripts we have are all in Greek. Not a single manuscript of James exists in Aramaic or Hebrew. I've read numerous books on this issue and not a single book even hints at what you're saying. If you want to know who made that choice, look at the available evidence. Everything points to James writing in Greek. Go read a few books on the issue.

I previously wrote:

You are reaching for things for which no physical evidence exists

AND THAT IS EXACTLY THE POINT I WAS MAKING WITH THE QUESTION. We don't know for a fact what language James wrote it in, we don't know for a fact who chose to use that sentance structure. You want to ignore that and treat the known manuscripts as if they are the originals, I'm saying you have to more scholarly than that and allow for the possibility that James did not write it in Greek and some scribe chose that sentance structure while translating it.

Your ignorance on this issue is profound. If you knew anything about textual issues you wouldn't make such ignorant comments. Your position is one of silence - there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support your position.

No, a statement of fact. An argument from silence reaches some kind of conclusion, all I did is point out that the fact the known manuscripts are Greek is not a valid proof for claiming the original was Greek, my claim is that the language of the orginal is unknown, a fact. It COULD have been Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, or something else.

It's an argument from silence - there is nothing to support your position. Nothing. You've obviously drawn your conclusion. And one thing is obvious, you have no idea what you're talking about. Could you tell me anything, any book you've read on this issue? And if you knew anything about textual issues you would know that after a certain quantity of manuscripts are found and not a single piece of evidence exists against all the other evidence, it is considered to be close enough to the original to call it just that.

Greek was the most common language on a (old)worldwide level, but James wasn't writing to everybody, he was writing to the Jews, so Hebrew and Aramaic are also likely candidates for the original language and brushing off the possibility is not justified.

Grig, scholar of no evidence, reacher of things never seen, believer in the things never said. Would you please provide a single piece of physical evidence to support your position?

Not among the Jews at that time. I'm taking into account the language and culture of the intended audience and the author, and saying that we can't rule out certain posibilites. You reply that I'm ignoring the context when I do that is rather funny.

Please cite a source to support your position. Any source. Even Hyam Maccoby, author and hater of Christianity. Please, just one source. Of course you can't support your statement. It's beyond ridiculous.

It all comes down to how James intended it to be taken. You have your opinion and I have mine about what the intended scope of v5 is. So far you have not shown anything in the content or the context that even makes your claim seem like a possibility to me.

Simply amazing. You agree the context is trials yet you think it's perfectly find to take it out of that context to support whatever you want. James intended meaning is in the context: trials.

Like I said, it does not limit wisdom to only wisdom to endure a trial. If you claim it does, then YOU are reading something into it that isn't there.

You are incredible. Unable to realize what even your own source is saying. It's very obvious my source agrees with your source, but your source is written at a much higher level. My sources take it further into the meat of the details but you'll close your eyes to the facts if you don't like what they say.

Already you have taken tha anaolgy much farther than intended.

If the analogy is going to reflect the context of James 1:5, then I'm going to see to it the analogy fits as best as possible. If you want to start another thread on straw man analogies, have at it.

21 posted on 02/07/2003 1:47:26 PM PST by scripter
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To: Grig
The following for your education. Different definitions of a hellenist:

A hellenist was a person living in Hellenistic times who was Greek in language, outlook, and way of life but was not Greek in ancestry; especially : a hellenized Jew.

(Grecian ), the term applied in the New Testament to Greek-speaking or "Grecian" Jews. The Hellenists as a body included not only the proselytes of Greek (or foreign) parentage, but also those. Jews who, by settling in foreign countries, had adopted the prevalent form of the current Greek civilization, and with it the use of the common Greek dialect. (Acts 6:1; 9:29)

Also called: Hellenizer. (in the Hellenistic world) a non-Greek, esp a Jew, who adopted Greek culture.

22 posted on 02/07/2003 1:56:20 PM PST by scripter
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To: scripter
"You are clearly demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of context...James says if you need wisdom to endure a trial, ask God"

No, James said that if you lack wisdom, ask God for it. He said that while talking to them about trials, but he did not say 'if you need wisdom to endure a trial, ask God'. There is a difference. As I said once long ago (or so it seems) while discussing a specific topic, gerneral statements can and are made that are not limited to only the topic being discussed, I gave an example in my story of just such an occurance as well.

Your appeal to the Greek syntax only establishes that 'people who face trials lack wisdom' which does nothing to limit the kind of wisdom being asked for. In fact you could take it that by asking God for wisdom we can AVOID some trials.

"he is not saying you can't ask God for wisdom in other areas"

Good! Since you admit he had no intent to restrict the type of wisdom being asked for, it doesn't change his intended meaning when James 1:5 is used to justify seeking any wisdom beyond just wisdom to endure trials.

"Never. Not once have I made that claim. If you think otherwise then please show me what post number. You obviously have not understood something I said. "

So you are saying a person can quote James 1:5 for wisdom other than wisdom to endure trials without changing the intended meaning of the author?

The very start of this thread says: 'Claiming this verse for anything other than wisdom to endure trials changes the original meaning'. If claiming that you CAN get wisdom from God for some other reasons besides trials changes the original meaning, then the inteneded meaning must be that you CAN'T get wisdom from God for any other reason than enduring trials. I really do hope I'm misunderstanding your position, so feel free to clarify yourself.

"We agree the context is trials."

Yes.

"We agree James said to ask for wisdom to endure trials"

I said James applied a general principle (we can seek wisdom from God if we have faith) to a specific context (trials), but there is nothing to justify saying he intended that to be the ONLY context that principle can be applied to. The wisdom James refers to is any wisdom a person stands in need of. Wisdom to endure a trial, avoid a trial, wisdom to choose the paths in life that will be God's will for us, not JUST wisdom to endure trials.

"but you want to claim this verse to support asking God for wisdom for anything when the context is specifically trials."

And you can get a hammer at Home Depot no matter what you want it for, even though that information on where to get it came within a specific context of a lesson on building cabinets. Please tell me you can see the paralell, even if you still don't agree with it.

Oh, and as I said before, ALL wisdom is in harmony with God's will.

" I have claimed James 1:5 is wisdom for trials and trials alone but have never said James denies wisdom for other areas."

Self contradictory. If he intended James 1:5 is wisdom for trials AND TRIALS ALONE then he DOES deny wisdom for other areas by that very act.

"In fact I've stated over and over that James probably used Matt 7:7 as a basis for his thoughts, which could be wisdom for anything in the glory of God. "

But then you turn around and say that using v5 for anyting other than wisdom to endure trials is contrary to the intended meaning of the author. Can't you see the contradiction of that?

"Yet for some reason you want to ...use that verse to support asking for wisdom. Why?...I just don't know why you're stuck on this verse to request wisdom"

Because I think if very clearly states a true principle and that using it as I do in no way alters the intended meaning of the author. I also know from personal experience that it is true in the general case, not just when it comes to enduring trials. Do you really think James would jump up and object if he could when I encourage someone to seek wisdom from God for some other righteous purpose and point them to v5?

"The context tells us everything"

Really? Just how do you know it tells you everything? Context is a usefull tool when trying to understand the intended message, but it is not perfect even in the best of circumstances.

"For some reason you want to rip this verse out of its context. "

All quotations separate the quote from it's context. As long as it doesn't do so in a way that alters the intended message of the quote there is no problem. James did not intend his words to be taken to mean that you can ONLY ask for wisdom to endure trials, therefore it does not alter the intended meaning when it is quoted in refference to seeking other kinds of wisdom.

"Please provide the post number where I said that. "

From Post 17:
Grig: Your claim as I understand it is that the context justifies claiming that James' intent is better expressed by "If any of you are in the midst of a trial and lack wisdom on how to properly deal with that trial, he may ask God for wisdom on how to properly deal with that trial only".. I disagree with that.

scripter: Yes, you understand my claim perfectly

"That's a really pathetic question."

That's a really pathetic way to avoid answering it.

"I've told you the thousands of manuscripts we have are all in Greek. Not a single manuscript of James exists in Aramaic or Hebrew. I've read numerous books on this issue and not a single book even hints at what you're saying. If you want to know who made that choice, look at the available evidence. Everything points to James writing in Greek."

Now THAT is arguing from silence. Claiming an absence of discovered Aramaic or Hebrew manuscripts is not proof that there never were any.

Oh, you might find these interesting:

from http://www.biblesociety.ca/about_bible/original_languages/
"Many scholars believe that Mark's Gospel was written in Aramaic, and only later translated into Greek, and some believe that other portions of the New Testament were also originally written in Aramaic or Hebrew."

From http://www.aramaic.org/MANUSCRIPT.html
"Fortunately, today many sincere Bible students and scholars, who are tired of constant revision of the Scriptures from Greek, are turning to the Aramaic. Now many of them are admitting that there was an original written in Aramaic, the language which Jesus and his disciples spoke, from which the Greek was translated, but that it was lost. It is probably true all ancient texts of the Holy Scriptures perished in the lands west of the Euphrates, Syria and Palestine during the Roman and Byzantine persecutions, but original Bible manuscripts survived in the Euphrates Valley in an inaccessible region as Hakari; and in Iran (Persian Empire) among the ancient Assyrian Christians, and the remnant of the Ten Tribes."

http://www.metamind.net/lamsaorig.html

Nothing you stated PROVES the original was in Greek, and it is not my position to prove they were not Greek, only to show that we don't know with absolute certainty what the original language was.

You don't have the original so no matter how many Greek copies there are, there still exists the possibility that it was not originally writen in Greek. If you say it is very likely that it was in Greek, fine, but if you categorically insist that it is a fact that James wrote in in Greek then you go farther than the evidence justifies.

"there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support your position"

My position is that we don't know for sure what language the original was written in. That is a fact. Any conclusions based on the existing manuscripts can at best indicate a LIKELY property of some previous manuscript, which indication may or may not be correct, and in which the previous manuscript may or may not be the original.

"after a certain quantity of manuscripts are found and not a single piece of evidence exists against all the other evidence, it is considered to be close enough to the original to call it just that. "

After all that you can come as close to the original as your source manuscripts allow, but unless you have the original itself to compare against you can not declare with absolute certainty that you have perfect copy of the original.

The possibility that the conclusion is wrong still exists, like it or not, and real scholars won't be afraid to admit that. Having a high degree of confidence in a position is not the same thing as having absolute proof. This has little to do with the specifics of textual critisizm, it is mainly a matter of valid research techniques used in all fields of study.

"Would you please provide a single piece of physical evidence to support your position? "

My position is that when you don't have the original, you can't be 100% sure the copies you have are exactly the same as the original, and you can't be certain that any attempt to reconstruct the original is 100% accurate as well. If that position requires proof for you to accept it, you are beyond my ability to help.

"If the analogy is going to reflect the context of James 1:5, then I'm going to see to it the analogy fits as best as possible."

I told you the analogy is to highlight a specific point I am trying to make: that just because something is said in one specific context doesn't by itself justify claiming that is the ONLY context it is valid for. Do you agree with that point or not?
23 posted on 02/07/2003 8:27:47 PM PST by Grig
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To: Grig
No, James said that if you lack wisdom, ask God for it. He said that while talking to them about trials, but he did not say 'if you need wisdom to endure a trial, ask God'.

The sentence structure and the Greek words disagree with you, from verse 4:

The ability to turn testing into greatness and glory must finish its work so that you may be perfect for a given end, with weaknesses and imperfections gone, deficient in nothing. If any of you while enduring a trial are deficient in wisdom to meet the trial in the right way, continue to ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.
Here's Wuest's translation:
But be allowing the aformentioned patience to be having its complete work in order that you may be spirtually mature and complete in every detail, lacking in nothing. And if, as is the case, anyone of you [when undergoing these trials] is deficient in wisdom, let him keep on presenting his request in the presence of the giving God who gives to all with simplicity and without reserve, [a pure, simple giving of good without admixture of evil or bitterness], and who does not [with the giving of the gift] reproach [the recipient with any manifestation of displeasure or regret], and it shall be given him.

You have demonstrated a profound lack of knowledge in all areas of the hellenized times and yet you think your ignorant position carries more weight than Greek scholars.

24 posted on 02/08/2003 5:35:20 AM PST by scripter
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To: Grig
You have to ignore the Greek to ignore the original intent. For some reason you want to pull James 1:5 out of the specific context of wisdom for trials and use that verse to support asking for wisdom. Why not use the following verses instead of pulling James 1:5 out of context?
Matthew 7:7
Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

John 15:7
If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.

Luke 11:9
So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.


25 posted on 02/08/2003 5:36:32 AM PST by scripter
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To: Grig
Your appeal to the Greek syntax only establishes that 'people who face trials lack wisdom' which does nothing to limit the kind of wisdom being asked for. In fact you could take it that by asking God for wisdom we can AVOID some trials.

You actually almost got something right. The text does hint that we can ask God for wisdom in order to avoid trials and at the same time ask for wisdom to help us endure trials. You would know that if you did any reading on the subject.

Good! Since you admit he had no intent to restrict the type of wisdom being asked for, it doesn't change his intended meaning when James 1:5 is used to justify seeking any wisdom beyond just wisdom to endure trials.

Yeah, twist my words some more! You asked me to clarify my position if you have it wrong but I just hope there is some magical number of times that I can repeat the same words over and over where it will eventually sink in. I'm going to say exactly what I've said I don't know how many times. No, I'll expand on what I've previously said and save this so I can copy and paste it the next 50 times you misrepresent my words.

The context of James 1:5 is trials and the wisdom James says to ask for is specifically tied to the context of trials. As a basis for his thoughts and from the words he chose to use, James probably had Matt 7:7 in mind as he wrote the first chapter of James.

In ripping James 1:5 out of context (by definition changes the original intent) there is no longer a context from which to understand the original intent and some, as we've seen here, will try to use the wisdom of James 1:5 to support whatever they want.

Luke 11:9 tells us:

If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.
What an awesome promise God grants to those who remain in Him. James was no doubt familiar with this teaching and probably used a similar passage, Matthew 7:7 as a basis for his thoughts when writing the first chapter of the book of James.

The key and the context here is remaining in Him. You can't pull Luke 11:9 out of the context of remaining in him to support whatever you want just like you can't pull James 1:5 out of it's context of trials to support whatever you want. Doing so changes the original intent and leaves nothing from which to understand the original intent.

You have conveniently provided an out for yourself. When it gets down to admitting you're wrong, all you'll have to do is what you've already done. That is, state we don't know if the text is accurate. Don't believe the delusion you're being given.

26 posted on 02/08/2003 6:03:29 AM PST by scripter
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To: Grig
I previously wrote:
Please provide the post number where I said that.

From Post 17: Grig: Your claim as I understand it is that the context justifies claiming that James' intent is better expressed by "If any of you are in the midst of a trial and lack wisdom on how to properly deal with that trial, he may ask God for wisdom on how to properly deal with that trial only".. I disagree with that.

scripter: Yes, you understand my claim perfectly

Now we see the whole picture. The way you used the above gave a different impression than the original. Yes, the wisdom in James 1:5 is about trials and trials alone. I previously wrote:

That's a really pathetic question.

That's a really pathetic way to avoid answering it.

Yes, stating the known facts are pathetic according to Grig, who is profoundly ignorant of all things Greek.

I previously wrote:

I've told you the thousands of manuscripts we have are all in Greek. Not a single manuscript of James exists in Aramaic or Hebrew. I've read numerous books on this issue and not a single book even hints at what you're saying. If you want to know who made that choice, look at the available evidence. Everything points to James writing in Greek."
Now THAT is arguing from silence. Claiming an absence of discovered Aramaic or Hebrew manuscripts is not proof that there never were any.

Yours is the argument from silence, trying to hide from the facts by pulling in ideas with no supporting evidence. Please provide references to any physical evidence you have to support your thoughts that James might not be originally written in Greek.

Oh, you might find these interesting:

I've seen similar sites and they have no physical evidence to support their position. If you think otherwise, please provide any physical evidence to support your thoughts here. I said any, that leaves it wide open for you. Take all the space you need. What am I saying? You don't need any space because there is zero physical evidence to support your position.

27 posted on 02/08/2003 6:27:47 AM PST by scripter
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To: Grig
My position is that when you don't have the original, you can't be 100% sure the copies you have are exactly the same as the original, and you can't be certain that any attempt to reconstruct the original is 100% accurate as well. If that position requires proof for you to accept it, you are beyond my ability to help.

You helping me? That's good. We're almost on the same page here except that I won't run from the facts we do have when they become inconvenient for my belief system. And we've seen you do just that with your statements that since we don't know anything for sure, you're going to close your eyes to what we do have and believe whatever you want.

28 posted on 02/08/2003 6:38:39 AM PST by scripter
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To: scripter
"from verse 4:"

That is a restatement of your view of v4.

"Here's Wuest's translation:...And if, as is the case, anyone of you [when undergoing these trials] is deficient in wisdom, let him keep on presenting his request..."

From: http://www.innvista.com/scriptures/versions/wet.htm
"[The Wuest Expanded Translation] uses as many English words as necessary to bring out the richness, force, and clarity of the Greek text..."

Even though the WET goes out of its way to spell everything the Greek text indicates out, it still doesn't limit the scope of the remark to ONLY wisdom to endure trials, and it doesn't limit to ONLY asking when in a trial. It in no way indicates any intent on James' part to put such a restriction on things.

But that's not all, from http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Palms/2522/biblevers.html#Wuest
"On the downside, some interpretation seems to creep into the translation, and words in brackets should not always be taken as necessarily implied in the Greek originals"

And from http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/local/doc/punctuation/node39.html
"There is only one common use for square brackets ([ ]). Square brackets are used to set off an interruption within a direct quotation."

Kudos to Wuest for using square brackets properly instead of protraying his interpretation as if it was more than that.

So if we remove the bracketed comments we get: "But be allowing the aformentioned patience to be having its complete work in order that you may be spirtually mature and complete in every detail, lacking in nothing. And if, as is the case, anyone of you is deficient in wisdom, let him keep on presenting his request in the presence of the giving God who gives to all with simplicity and without reserve, and who does not reproach, and it shall be given him."

Now did you just not know any of this, or were you hoping I didn't?

"You have demonstrated a profound lack of knowledge "

LOL!
29 posted on 02/09/2003 1:28:14 PM PST by Grig
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To: scripter
"You have to ignore the Greek to ignore the original intent. "

See my post before this post.

"Why not use the following verses instead "

I already answered that.

30 posted on 02/09/2003 1:30:34 PM PST by Grig
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To: scripter
"The text does hint that we can ask God for wisdom in order to avoid trials and at the same time ask for wisdom to help us endure trials. "

So now it isn't ONLY wisdom to endure a trial?

"You actually almost got something right... You would know that if you did any reading on the subject."

Your continued attempts to elevate yourself by attacking me with snide remarks like that does nothing to help your position.

"Yeah, twist my words some more! "

Just trying to point out the contridiction you make. You say that quoting v5 for anything other than wisdom to endure trials goes against the original intent of James, but that James had no intent to limit it to just wisdom to endure trials. Can you explain how I violate and intent that isn't there?

"I just hope there is some magical number of times that I can repeat the same words over and over where it will eventually sink in."

I just hope there is some magical number of times that I can repeat the same words over and over where it will eventually sink in.

"The context of James 1:5 is trials and the wisdom James says to ask for is specifically tied to the context of trials."

And I say not limited to the context of trials.

"In ripping James 1:5 out of context (by definition changes the original intent) "

Every time you quote any verse you remove it from it's context, but that doesn't automaticly mean you mis-represented the author's intent. The analogy I gave provided a specific example of advice that was given in a specific context, but that was not intended to be limited to only that context.

"and some, as we've seen here, will try to use the wisdom of James 1:5 to support whatever they want. "

Oh for shame, suggesting that 'wisdom' means 'wisdom'.

"When it gets down to admitting you're wrong, all you'll have to do is what you've already done."

I'm glad you used the furture tense, I haven't been anywhere close to even thinking that perhaps I might not be right.

"That is, state we don't know if the text is accurate."

Hey, it was YOUR premise that the Greek syntax was so important. If you don't want to defend the foundations of your claims, then this isn't the place for you.

And what I said is that we don't know for sure who decided to use that particular Greek syntax (fact), and that must be taking into account when trying to determine author intent. Do you think such facts should be glossed over and ignored?
31 posted on 02/09/2003 2:00:30 PM PST by Grig
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To: scripter
"The way you used the above gave a different impression than the original"

Post #20:
You said James intent was 'perfectly' represented by :"If any of you are in the midst of a trial and lack wisdom on how to properly deal with that trial, he may ask God for wisdom on how to properly deal with that trial ONLY"

Post #17: Grig: Your claim as I understand it is that the context justifies claiming that James' intent is better expressed by "If any of you are in the midst of a trial and lack wisdom on how to properly deal with that trial, he may ask God for wisdom on how to properly deal with that trial only".. I disagree with that.

scripter: Yes, you understand my claim perfectly

I took your reply 'you understand my claim perfectly' to mean that you took "If any of you are in the midst of a trial and lack wisdom on how to properly deal with that trial, he may ask God for wisdom on how to properly deal with that trial only" as perfectly representing what you consider James' intent to be. If you did not mean it to be taken that way then please clarify your original reply. There was no intent give a different impression.

"Yours is the argument from silence"

Sigh, I wouldn't give you a passing grade on Logic 101, but here is something from 102 anyway...

Argumentum a silentio – (argument from silence) a generalization made based on lack of evidence for the contrary.

For example: Since there is no evidence (or insufficient evidence) to support X, notX is true.

In this specific case, saying 'Since there is no physical evidence suggesting the original language was not Greek, the original language was Greek.' IS by definition an argument from silence.

My position, that since we do not have the originals, we do not know what the original language is that it was written in, is a DENIAL of your argument from silence and is not ANY kind of generalization.

As I showed in the links I provided, scholars are not all in agreement, some think it was all originaly in Greek, some all in Aramaic, some think different languages for different parts. Are you going to suggest that a scholar's work is not worth considering unless it agrees with what you already belive?

"Please provide references to any physical evidence you have to support your thoughts that James might not be originally written in Greek. "

Proof is not required to refute an argument from silence because the reasoning itself is flawed. A lack of proof is not proof of a lack and if you want to assert that the orginals were written in Greek the burden of proof is on you. A lack of physical evedence to the contrary is meaningless.

As I said before, I don't make any claim about what the original language is, it might have been Greek, it might not have been. Without the originals it remains unknown.
32 posted on 02/09/2003 3:07:04 PM PST by Grig
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To: scripter
"except that I won't run from the facts we do have when they become inconvenient for my belief system."

I have yet to see any 'inconvenient' facts. It is the conlusions you jumpt to from the facts that I disagree with.

"And we've seen you do just that with your statements that since we don't know anything for sure, you're going to close your eyes to what we do have and believe whatever you want."

No, I am refusing to close my eyes to facts you find inconvenient, like the fact that we don't know if it was James who choose to use that particular Greek sentance structure.

You have this habbit of accusing me of the very errors you yourself are making.

Here are some parts of post #23 you have not replied to. I would appreciate answers to the questions I asked.


" I have claimed James 1:5 is wisdom for trials and trials alone but have never said James denies wisdom for other areas."

Self contradictory. If he intended James 1:5 is wisdom for trials AND TRIALS ALONE then he DOES deny wisdom for other areas by that very act.

"In fact I've stated over and over that James probably used Matt 7:7 as a basis for his thoughts, which could be wisdom for anything in the glory of God. "

But then you turn around and say that using v5 for anyting other than wisdom to endure trials is contrary to the intended meaning of the author. Can't you see the contradiction of that?

"The context tells us everything"

Really? Just how do you know it tells you everything? Context is a usefull tool when trying to understand the intended message, but it is not perfect even in the best of circumstances.

I told you the analogy is to highlight a specific point I am trying to make: that just because something is said in one specific context doesn't by itself justify claiming that is the ONLY context it is valid for. Do you agree with that point or not?
33 posted on 02/09/2003 3:22:10 PM PST by Grig
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Comment #34 Removed by Moderator

To: restornu
Hey, ease up rest.

scripter is going out of his way to have this discussion and although I consider him misguided in some ways, he is honestly misguided and doing a wonderfull job of staying focused on the topic.

If you have something of value to contribute to our discussion you are quite welcome to post it, but there is no need to poison the well.
35 posted on 02/09/2003 6:26:27 PM PST by Grig
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To: restornu; Wrigley
Did you get a post yanked by the moderator? Guess they don't appreciate your Spirit directed "poisoning of the well."
36 posted on 02/09/2003 6:42:17 PM PST by drstevej
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To: drstevej; scripter; Grig
Not sure if you've been following this thread, but it is a good one.

scripter's making good points.
37 posted on 02/09/2003 6:44:29 PM PST by Wrigley
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To: Grig
I previously wrote:
Why not use the following verses instead
I already answered that.

What post number? I doubt you answered the question. You may have responded to the post which doesn't always mean you answered the question. Besides that, I'm using a different verse here:

John 15:7
If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.

The key and the context here is remaining in Him. You can't pull Luke 11:9 out of the context of remaining in him to support whatever you want just like you can't pull James 1:5 out of it's context of trials to support whatever you want. Doing so changes the original intent and leaves nothing from which to understand the original intent.

So why do you not quote this verse when asking for "whatever you wish" instead of ripping James 1:5 out of the context of trials?

38 posted on 02/09/2003 10:42:21 PM PST by scripter
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To: Grig
So now it isn't ONLY wisdom to endure a trial?

The context has always been about trials and trials alone. Nice try, though.

Your continued attempts to elevate yourself by attacking me with snide remarks like that does nothing to help your position.

My position doesn't need any help as I've got all the evidence on my side. You on the other had have demonstrated such a profound ignorance here that my factual responses only make you appear even more ignorant on the sujbect.

"Yeah, twist my words some more! " Just trying to point out the contridiction you make. You say that quoting v5 for anything other than wisdom to endure trials goes against the original intent of James, but that James had no intent to limit it to just wisdom to endure trials. Can you explain how I violate and intent that isn't there?

I'm glad I saved my last response. Maybe you'll get it this time.

The context of James 1:5 is trials and the wisdom James says to ask for is specifically tied to the context of trials. As a basis for his thoughts and from the words he chose to use, James probably had Matt 7:7 in mind as he wrote the first chapter of James.

In ripping James 1:5 out of context (by definition changes the original intent) there is no longer a context from which to understand the original intent and some, as we've seen here, will try to use the wisdom of James 1:5 to support whatever they want.

Luke 11:9 tells us:

If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.
What an awesome promise God grants to those who remain in Him. James was no doubt familiar with this teaching and probably used a similar passage, Matthew 7:7 as a basis for his thoughts when writing the first chapter of the book of James.

The key and the context here is remaining in Him. You can't pull Luke 11:9 out of the context of remaining in him to support whatever you want just like you can't pull James 1:5 out of it's context of trials to support whatever you want. Doing so changes the original intent and leaves nothing from which to understand the original intent.

I previously wrote:

The context of James 1:5 is trials and the wisdom James says to ask for is specifically tied to the context of trials.

And I say not limited to the context of trials.

Grig, profoundly ignorant of all things Greek disagrees with Greek scholars who actually use physical evidence to support their writings.

Every time you quote any verse you remove it from it's context, but that doesn't automaticly mean you mis-represented the author's intent.

Your definition of context is at a very high level, which explains why you refuse to acknowledge the facts - you won't accept the details. Once again, by definition, pulling a verse out of context implies changing the intended meaning. It appears everybody but Grig has known that all along.

And what I said is that we don't know for sure who decided to use that particular Greek syntax (fact), and that must be taking into account when trying to determine author intent.

I'm still waiting for any physical evidence that supports a language other than Greek. You cannot provide that evidence because none has been found and everything we have found points to Greek. Your only argument is you don't like the facts.

You have conveniently provided an out for yourself. When it gets down to admitting you're wrong, all you'll have to do is what you've already done. That is, state we don't know if the text is accurate. Don't believe the delusion you're being given.

39 posted on 02/09/2003 10:46:12 PM PST by scripter
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To: Grig
I took your reply 'you understand my claim perfectly' to mean that you took "If any of you are in the midst of a trial and lack wisdom on how to properly deal with that trial, he may ask God for wisdom on how to properly deal with that trial only" as perfectly representing what you consider James' intent to be. If you did not mean it to be taken that way then please clarify your original reply. There was no intent give a different impression.

For James 1:5, yes. Now stop playing games.

Sigh, I wouldn't give you a passing grade on Logic 101, but here is something from 102 anyway...

I've been writing logic for over 2 decades and surely don't need any pointers from you. I caught your hint of a formal logical argument from silence; saw it for the dodge that it was and purposely brought the issue back on topic.

The issue here is that you have no physical evidence to support your thoughts that James might not have been written in Greek. Zero, nada, goose-egg, zilch - that summarizes all the evidence to support your thoughts.

As I showed in the links I provided, scholars are not all in agreement, some think it was all originaly in Greek, some all in Aramaic, some think different languages for different parts.

That is a really pathetic attempt of supporting your thoughts here. The facts are that every single piece of evidence we have supports Greek as the original language. The links you listed said the only available evidence we have is Greek. Their position, just likes yours is based on absolutely no physical evidence. But you'll accept what they say as credible because it helps you ignore the facts.

As I said before, I don't make any claim about what the original language is, it might have been Greek, it might not have been. Without the originals it remains unknown.

You have conveniently provided an out for yourself. When it gets down to admitting you're wrong, all you'll have to do is what you've already done. That is, state we don't know if the text is accurate or that we don't have the originals. That speaks volumes as you can conveniently dismiss whatever you don't like, always claiming we don't know if what we have is an accurate record.

40 posted on 02/09/2003 10:47:40 PM PST by scripter
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