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To: yendu bwam; thinktwice; Goldhammer
Reason can lead to discovery of the falsehood of authoritarian claims. But reason alone cannot always lead to the truth, and does not lead to morality.

Excellent. Reason can construct and critique arguments, question assumptions, discover contradictions and expose fallacies, and that sort of thing. Reason can discover much of how the physical world works, and it can give us a certain amount of power over our circumstances. Reason is also invaluable when you need to justify an impulsive decision after the fact.

But reason is, for the most part, blind to the matters of the spirit: the nature of God, the nature of men, the nature of good, the nature of evil.

thinktwice, so far you have left unanswered one rather important question, one that I will rephrase here: When we have eliminated all contradictions and fallacies from a line of reasoning, how can we be certain that we will have arrived at the truth? And if we can't be certain of this, then how can we be certain that reason will lead us to the truth?

One thing all men might learn from the past millennium -- highlighted by 11 September 2001 events -- is that the infalliblity lock religions claim over matters "moral" should be denounced for what it is; a lie.

While we are taking history lessons from the past millenium, don't forget this one, especially poignant in the last two centuries:

History Lesson #42

When someone comes to power in your nation telling people to throw off the 'bondage' of faith in God, run, don't walk! to apply for your emigration permit. And don't watch the news from the nation you left; it will be very depressing.

thinktwice, feel free to correct me on this. You appear to have studied history and philosophy and made the following observations:

  1. That the main world religions have severe disagreements in their religious and moral teachings
  2. That at most one religion could be true at each point of disagreement
  3. That they are particularly dogmatic on these points of their dogma
  4. That each religion has shown itself historically willing to fight and kill 'infidels' who believe differently
And you have reached the following conclusion:
That all of the world religions must therefore be wrong.

Did you conclude this before or after you discovered Ayn Rand?

At any rate, if you cannot see the gap in this logic, you would do well not to lean too heavily on your reason. But then, you might have more observations than the four I have listed. If you believe that you have anything resembling a proof of your conclusion, please present it for our enlightenment.

87 posted on 09/01/2002 3:49:51 PM PDT by Kyrie
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To: Kyrie
But reason alone cannot always lead to the truth, and does not lead to morality.

No human, religious or otherwise, has ever proven the existence of God; but all religions claim to be instruments of God. Which one, if any, can one trust?

In answer to that question, I'd tend to select the religion that gives God the benefit of highest respect while acknowledging man's inability to explain the nature of God -- The Jewish religion.

how can we be certain that reason will lead us to the truth?

The alternative question is has the same answer because man is not capable of total certainty. What we can be almost certain of, however, are those things we've learned for survival. "Look, there's a truck coming! Get out of the way." "I'm hungry, so I need something to eat." "My sister's children need something to eat (Jean Valjean in Les Miserables), but I'd have to steal to get it and stealing is immoral." To that Jean Valjean example, I'd say, the culture that considers that type (from the bakery) stealing immoral has an inflexible, perhaps evil, moral code much like that found in most religions today.

When someone comes to power in your nation telling people to throw off the 'bondage' of faith in God, run, don't walk!

The founding of the United States comes close to exemplify the condition you describe, in that the founders refused to permit a validity sanction to any religious faith.

With respect to your point #2. That at most one religion could be true at each point of disagreement.

There is nothing within articles of faith that are "true" in any respect, truth being the recognition of reality.

That all of the world religions must therefore be wrong.

Wrong, yes; totally wrong, no. No matter how good any religion is, no religion can claim credit for the natural goodness in Man, nor can any evil religion totally destroy that natural goodness.

you would do well not to lean too heavily on your reason.

I'll let Ayn Rand answer that one.

"They, you decide, will tell you what to do.
You are never heard from again.
... This is the way most men live their lives here, on earth."

That in bold is excerpted from Ayn Rand's lost astronaut story in the opening paragraphs of her 1974 speech to West Point cadets: "Philosophy: Who needs it."

88 posted on 09/01/2002 5:02:02 PM PDT by thinktwice
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To: Kyrie; thinktwice
When we have eliminated all contradictions and fallacies from a line of reasoning, how can we be certain that we will have arrived at the truth? And if we can't be certain of this, then how can we be certain that reason will lead us to the truth?

Bingo. Thinktwice, for your own adventure on the way to truth, you need to think about this.

101 posted on 09/03/2002 3:58:35 AM PDT by yendu bwam
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