It Came From The Roman Church: Catholic horror stories told by Evangelicals & how to respond

This Rock/ Catholic Answers via Petersnet ^ | David Mills

[Polycarp]

Title:	It Came From The Roman Church . . .
Author:	David Mills
Title:	It Came From The Roman Church . . .
Larger Work:	This Rock
Pages:	12 - 15
Publisher & Date:	Catholic Answers, Inc., San Diego, CA, April 2002
Includes:	Identical text with no graphics.
Description:	Catholic horror stories told by Evangelicals (and ex-Catholics) and how to respond to them.

"It Came From The Roman Church . . . "

Don't Flee From Catholic Horror Stories

By David Mills

In the brief time since my family became Catholics, some of my Evangelical friends have gone out of their way to tell me Catholic horror stories. They will tell me about some near-pagan example of Catholic folk religion they once saw, or an oppressive priest (reactionary or liberal) they once knew, or a Catholic family next door who went to Mass regularly but didn't know anything about the Bible and the faith, or a married friend who happily carried on a long affair supposedly by going to confession after each visit to his girlfriend.

Some of them like to talk about "recovering Catholics" who were supposedly so horribly damaged by growing up Catholic that they just had to become Protestants. (They are always surprisingly unskeptical about these stories.) These people suffered by being made to feel guilt and shame about everything they did or to feel that they could not ever satisfy all the rules God insisted they obey before he would love them.

This is both a personal and an evangelical problem for Catholics. Almost any Catholic who talks very long to a serious Evangelical will be told in some way that though the Pope is a wonderful man, and some Catholics really love the Lord, and thank God for the Catholics in the pro-life movement, the average Catholic parish is either a den of iniquity or simply dead spiritually.

The Evangelical will often claim, by contrast, that Evangelical churches are alive, and, since our Lord said we shall know them by their fruits (Matt. 7:16), Evangelicals are the real Christians. (This ignores, of course, that what Jesus said applied to individual teachers, not to movements or theological systems.) The implication is that if you're a Catholic you've been had.

It is probably worse for a convert, because his friends sometimes speak as if he were either a dullard who hasn't noticed the problems or a romantic who refuses to see them. "You won't live in Rome, you know," one close friend told me — meaning, I suppose, that the Catholic faith I would encounter wouldn't be pure — as if this would be shocking news to me, the mere stating of which would bring me to my senses.

What To Think

How can one respond to this line of argument?

First, you must admit that the Evangelical has enough facts to make a reasonable charge. The truth is that many Catholics do not lead a visibly faithful life. Most, for example, do not obey the Church's teaching on contraception. Few (amazingly to me) go to confession.

On the other hand, many Evangelicals and their churches appear to be models of faithfulness. They study Scripture, try to order their lives by its teaching, share their faith with others, and at some sacrifice minister to the world in many ways. We can learn much from them.

Second, you must listen with sympathy yet question the horror stories. Most of us have trouble doing this, because something in our culture trains us to accept any story of suffering without question and to assume that the Church must have been guilty of almost anything it is accused of.

Take the stories of "recovering" Catholics. Of course, some people have suffered real abuse and have been treated badly. But most of these stories I have heard from the allegedly "recovering" Catholics themselves do not ring true.

What I hear, beneath the emotion and the anger, is usually one of two things. The first is an unwillingness to grow up and forgive what seem to be the sort of offenses we have all suffered from parents or teachers or pastors. The second is an unwillingness to live the Catholic life, leading to a desire to blame the Catholic Church rather than admit this. I say this because the offenses they describe were often surprisingly minor, even trivial, and were often simply attempts — some clearly clumsy or unkind, but some apparently not — to get them to live a fully Catholic life.

For example, many (I do not know how to put this delicately) left the Church when they wanted to remarry after a divorce, and the conjunction of their remarriage and their enlightenment is too convenient for me to accept the latter at face value. (In my experience, it is rare to find an ex-Catholic in Episcopal churches who is not divorced and remarried, and friends tell me that this is also true in many Evangelical churches.)

And of course the Catholic life is a difficult one to live and some people do not want to try. My wife works a few hours a week in the nursery of a budding megachurch nearby, and several of the other women she works with were once Catholics. They have all told her they left the Church because they "found Jesus" elsewhere. I suggested she look them in the eye and say, "You're using contraception, aren't you?" (She didn't.)

Now, I do not mean that you ought to tell the "recovering Catholic" that you do not believe his story. That would be unkind and perhaps drive him yet further from the Church. I suggest only that you have a mental reservation, based on a reasonable reading of the evidence.

Hard To Argue With

Third, you must remember that the Evangelical has a different idea of the local church. He is comparing apples with oranges and complaining that the oranges aren't red enough.

For the Evangelical, the local church is primarily a gathered community of those of like mind and social class that forms a fairly complete alternative community for its members. For the Catholic, the local church is primarily the place we — people of different minds and classes — gather to meet the Lord in the Mass and from which we go out to exercise our vocations in the world.

The Evangelical church will therefore produce lots of public ministries, from Bible studies to short-term mission trips. The Catholic church may or may not have a lot of these ministries, but in either case they are not essential to its life and not stressed in the way they are in the Evangelical church.

The time and energy Evangelical put into their churches' public ministries Catholics may be putting into other, less visible religious activities. They may go to daily Mass when the Evangelical would go to a midweek Bible study, but for some reason going to Mass is not counted as a sign of "life."

Fourth, you must remember the practical differences between Catholics and Evangelicals. There is less attachment to a particular local church in Protestant circles because these churches are more transitory: They get created, split, and cease to be much more regularly than do Catholic parishes.

The Evangelical church therefore has to provide its people with the nourishment that deeper roots provide those who have lived there longer. The type of social interaction that the Catholic may have in his extended family the Evangelical may have to find in his church. The Evangelical church will seem livelier, though it is only giving its members what the Catholics have already. Its social homogeneity helps a great deal as well. There is more potential for interaction among its members due to greater similarities, interests, goals, et cetera. More diversity — which you find in many Catholic parishes — means less potential for interaction.

Because the two churches are different in theory and in practice, the Evangelical church can be presented as livelier than the Catholic church next door, because its life is much more public, while the life of the second is largely hidden from view. The Catholic parish may be producing saints by the dozen, but it may not produce enough visible efforts to get credit for "life."

Fifth, you must remember that as a Catholic you are tied down in a way the Evangelical is not. Anyone who doesn't meet the standards of holiness or zeal required in a particular Evangelical church may either leave or be disinvited to attend. The Evangelical can simply declare that the offender is not a "true Christian." But Catholics cannot disown bad Catholics. A Catholic is stuck with every other Catholic in the world, no matter how badly he behaves.

Besides this disadvantage, the Catholic Church does not even get to claim her own saints on her own behalf. Because they feel any good Christian must in some sense be one of them, Evangelicals will often adopt a Mother Teresa as a sort of honorary Evangelical and try to take credit for her as well. (This, I should make clear, has happened to me in discussions with my Evangelical friends.)

The Evangelical World

Sixth, you must realize that though there is much to admire in Evangelicalism, things are not exactly as they seem. A Catholic will have to note that even the most conservative Evangelicals have capitulated completely to the contraceptive mentality and for the most part to the divorce culture as well. Almost all neglect the sacramental life, and though they all recognize the authority of Scripture, they are enmeshed in intractable disagreements over what it means.

And even one of their own pollsters, George Barna, has found that they are doctrinally a confused body. Over one-third do not believe in Jesus' physical Resurrection, and over half do not believe in the existence of the Holy Spirit. About two in five "born again" Christians believe that "it does not matter what religious faith you follow because all faiths teach similar lessons about life," and from half to three-quarters believe "there is no such thing as absolute truth."

I bring this up not to put down our Evangelical brothers and sisters, who on most issues are our closest allies and often are models of faithfulness. I bring it up only to encourage those who have been left tongue-tied by the sort of argument I've described. Out of charity, you should not be quick to quote these statistics in return but will, I hope, be able to listen with some serenity to someone put down the Catholic Church as inferior to Evangelicalism.

A Sign

Finally, you must see that realism about the Catholic Church implies a surprising proof of her claims. My Evangelical friends think that comparing lax Catholics to lively Evangelicals will make me an Evangelical. Their horror stories may be disturbing to me personally, but not to my faith. They do not make me doubt the claims of the Catholic Church. Fallen men in groups rarely keep a high standard and almost never do so over any length of time.

As a barely Christianized teenager, listening to classmates in my social studies class sneer at Christianity because the Allies and the Germans both sang hymns as they killed each other, I thought that such a thing was only what one would expect. That Christians in 1915 thought that God was on their side did not seem to me to have much to do with the question of whether Jesus of Nazareth was the Son of God who rose from the dead almost nineteen hundred years before.

Laxity seems to me almost inevitable in something as big and as old and as embedded in the culture as the Catholic Church. But I do not suggest that Catholics console themselves with a realistic view of the Catholic Church as a human institution, because in the body of Christ sociological inevitability does not have the last word.

I began to love the Catholic Church in part because she kept reviving when she seemed to be dying and men of the world were writing her obituary. Time after time, when sociologists predicted her death, she exploded into new life. These revivals have always seemed to me a sign of her unique divine life. We are, I think, at the beginning of such a revival even now.

What To Do

But what to do, when a friend tells you Catholic horror stories? It is trying, being treated as a dolt or a fool. I have found the best way to respond is simply to say, gently, "I'm not stupid, you know." This will usually send your friend into retreat — though not always, I've found. While he tries to apologize you can begin to tell him about the one Church whose status is not affected by her members' sins and failings.

And then you can admit that most Catholics are not perfect Catholics and explain that in the Catholic Church you have found all the graces by which God will help you pursue God. You can say that you love and respect your Evangelical brothers and sisters, but only in the Catholic Church are these graces to be found in their full range and power — which is why all the horror stories in the world will not discourage you.

David Mills is the author of Knowing the Real Jesus (Servant/Charis [2001]) and a senior editor of Touchstone: A Magazine of Mere Christianity.

©2002 by Catholic Answers, Inc.

[malakhi]

Think about it. Not only do you need to be "ignorant," which is utterly lacking in knowledge and understanding, you also have to possess this ignorance in an "invincible" way. Any given person is not guaranteed to meet either of these requirements.

I think the Universal Catechism is pretty clear in its statement about "separated brethren". It certainly doesn't consign them all to hell, as was implied in a previous post.

[Polycarp]

Read replies 1-20, and contrast the tone with 21-40. Big difference.

Maybe. But both are extremely mild compared to the BS we can expect when the anti-Catholic Caucus arrives on this thread.

[SoothingDave]

I think the Universal Catechism is pretty clear in its statement about "separated brethren". It certainly doesn't consign them all to hell, as was implied in a previous post.

Indeed. I must have missed a mention of hell; I did see people rejoicing at people returning to the Church. But if our seperated ones were dismissed in this fashion, I do not concurr. Feeneyism is not the Church's teaching.

SD

[Right_Wing_Mole_In_Seattle]

As is the concept of passing on teachings by oral tradition

Scripture never says that oral tradition cannot be compromised, in fact Paul gives examples. How do we then no what is real? We go back to scripture.

i.e., the doctrine of sola scriptura is itself not scriptural.

Do you think God would agree with you saying that His Word should not be the standard?

- worship Mary or idolatrous icons,
Neither do we. If you say we do, you are either lying or ignorant or perhaps a combination of the two.

You can deny it ALL YOU WANT, but the fact is if I acted toward a tree the way you act toward Mary, you would call me a pagan.

You appear unable to distinguish your interpretation of scripture from scripture itself. And you're the one who claims to believe in sola scriptura!

You must see the circular argument here. Anyone can say this to anyone else. We can always say "that isn't what scripture says, it's just your interpretation of it!" The Mormons tell me this all the time. You "heal" this cognitive dissonance by setting up your "oral tradition" as your guide. The problem is, now your oral tradition has become the standard by which you judge scripture instead of using God's Word as you're guide. Even a short overview of church history will show you that oral tradition has changed. The greatest argument against the Catholic Church's claim of infallibilty is to see how that doctrine has changed over time.

[Desdemona]

Poly, they've arrived. I'm going to go say a rosary now. A novena till my birthday.

[Polycarp]

when the anti-Catholic Caucus arrives on this thread

Oops, I should at least give credit to the feeble attempt at distortions posted from the Pacific Northwest already on this thread.

[Desdemona]

"You can deny it ALL YOU WANT, but the fact is if I acted toward a tree the way you act toward Mary, you would call me a pagan."

Before I go spend time with Our Lady, I want to know...how DO we act toward Mary?

Oh, and what sacraments are not biblical?

[malakhi]

Maybe. But both are extremely mild compared to the BS we can expect when the anti-Catholic Caucus arrives on this thread.

Becky has already checked in, and she was nothing but polite.

[Right_Wing_Mole_In_Seattle]

You can provide conversion stories both ways. The Catholics have Protestants wrong, the Protestants have Catholics wrong. It doesn't prove anything! All I learned is that Patty doesn't have the scriptural insight that her brother has and that she is more easily duped. Some people get so fed up with the debate that they just want to be told what to believe. The "Vicar of Christ" is such a juicy answer to some people.

[SoothingDave]

Do you think God would agree with you saying that His Word should not be the standard?

Do you think Catholics think they deliberately choose things that God disagrees with? Give us an iota of respect, all right?

(BTW, God's Word is Jesus. Scripture, on the other hand, is materially sufficient, but not formally sufficient.)

SD

[Polycarp]

but the fact is if I acted toward a tree the way you act toward Mary, you would call me a pagan.

LOL! Think about what you said here for a moment.

I'll rephrase it so you comprehend my point:

"the fact is if I acted toward a tree the way you act toward JESUS, you would call me a pagan"

Of course I would. What's yer point?

Logic and reasoning ain't your strong point.

[Polycarp]

Becky has already checked in, and she was nothing but polite.

As usual, but Big Mack is probably soon to follow, and the mole in the redwood already checked in too.

[Right_Wing_Mole_In_Seattle]

but the fact is if I acted toward a tree the way you act toward Mary, you would call me a pagan.
LOL! Think about what you said here for a moment.
I'll rephrase it so you comprehend my point:
"the fact is if I acted toward a tree the way you act toward JESUS, you would call me a pagan"

Are you equating Mary with Jesus? This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. You diefy Mary. That rephrase was so easy for you to do wasn't it? Do you get them confused at times? If you don't hold them on at least similar levels than why did you see this as a fitting analogy?

[Polycarp]

If you don't hold them on at least similar levels than why did you see this as a fitting analogy?

Because if anybody treats any tree as they would treat any human, Christian, saint, or Christ, they are acting pagan, fool.

Pagans think trees have souls, whales have souls, spotted owls have souls, etc.

You obsession with trying to prove that Catholics worship Mary, against all available evidence to the contrary, is a sign of deep seated pathology if not demonically inspired irrationality and hatred.

Take your simplistic lies about Christ's Church elsewhere. You're over your head here.

[Polycarp]

BTW, Are you equating Mary with a tree? Is she so inconsequential to you, she who scripture says was the first to be full of grace, who scripture says all generations must call her blessed, whose virginal womb carried your and my Savior, who Christ gave us as our Mother on the cross, that you have the temerity to suggest that she should be no more regarded by Christians than a tree?

You are one sick "Christian."

[Right_Wing_Mole_In_Seattle]

"Before I go spend time with Our Lady, I want to know...how DO we act toward Mary?"

Daily, daily sing to Mary,
Sing, my soul, her praises due.
All her feasts, her actions worship
With the heart's devotion true.
Lost in wond'ring contemplation,
Be her Majesty confess'd.
Call her Mother, call her Virgin,
Happy Mother, Virgin blest.

She is mighty to deliver.
Call her, trust her lovingly.
When the tempest rages round thee,
She will calm the troubled sea.
Gifts of heaven she has given,
Noble Lady, to our race.
She, the Queen, who decks her subjects
With the light of God's own grace.

Sing, my tongue, the Virgin's trophies
Who for us her Maker bore.
For the curse of old inflicted,
Peace and blessing to restore.
Sing in songs of peace unending,
Sing the world's majestic Queen.
Weary not nor faint in telling.
All the gifts she gives to men.

Now, go spend your time. But when you ask for grace and mercy ask Christ instead.

[Polycarp]

Are you equating Mary with Jesus? This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. You diefy Mary.

Are you equating Mary with a tree? This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. You insult our Lord when you so insult His Mother, saying she is to be no more regarded than a tree.

[nate4one]

I really enjoyed this read and found it very disturbing because you have put a lot of truth to evangelical behavior in your defense of Catholocism.
I have always had close Catholic friends and I respect many on these threads, but some serious issues, that I feel are in the mind of a serious protestant believer were not addressed. Maybe someone can help me.

My Reasons For Not Being Catholic

1. My conscience would never allow me to pray to anyone but the Father.
2. I disagree with the whole idea of confession and it's instructions on what to do to be forgiven. (pennance?) There is not, and never will be anything I can do to be forgiven. Christ did it for me.
3. I do not believe in sacraments because of my eschatology and also I believe all sacraments were copies of what Christ has now accomplished spiritually and therefore are not necessary.
4. I do not believe in an organizations authority but in Christ's authority. An organization, that in it's past has commited horrible attrocities against mankind, led by Popes, need to reevaluate it's "faith and morals" line of reasoning. The same goes for any protestant organization. They are clearly falible.

The issue of praying to "saints" and bowing before statues (as the pope himself does with the Peter statue in the Vatican) are the biggest reasons. Ritualization is the other.

I am not so sure it is not the Catholic who chooses that belief out of a sense of security and community rather than the Protestant. They tend to be more insecure to go out on their own and test what we say. They must always rely on the counsel of fallible men rather than the plain writing in the word of God.

I am just as critical with protestants . I think it is sad that divorce excuses are a major reason for leaving Catholocism. They are leaving more than a religios organization when that is their reason.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Do you have any concern for lost souls? Do you think your approach will convince anyone that you do or will draw them to the catholic church? Just something to think about:)

Becky

[Right_Wing_Mole_In_Seattle]

BTW, Are you equating Mary with a tree?

I am putting her in the realm of "created beings", she is the creature as opposed to the creator. What do you think Paul meant in Romans 1:25 ("who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.") Sure, you can say that Mary is far above a tree, and I agree with you. You might even want to say that some people are far above other people, and I'd have no problem with that. But the distance between the created realm and God is infinite. You cannot say the Mary comes close enough to Christ that she is worthy of His praise!

Is she so inconsequential to you,

No, you were caught getting Mary confused with Christ so you must go on this tirade to detract from my initial question. Continue.

she who scripture says was the first to be full of grace, who scripture says all generations must call her blessed, whose virginal womb carried your and my Savior, who Christ gave us as our Mother on the cross that you have the temerity to suggest that she should be no more regarded by Christians than a tree? You are one sick "Christian."

Did that feel good? Now answer my question. Are you confusing Mary with Christ?