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The evolving Darwin debate
WorldNetDaily ^ | March 24, 2002 | Julie Foster

Posted on 03/24/2002 7:03:09 PM PST by scripter

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To: Stultis
I think the problem with "proven" is its use in the vernacular where it means that something has been demonstrated to be true beyond a reasonable doubt. Hence all the confusion with this word (the same is also the case with "theory").
But in a strict scientific sense no theory will ever be proven (but you already said that in #65).
261 posted on 03/28/2002 1:52:29 AM PST by BMCDA
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To: Stultis
They problem is that every other theory in every other field of science "leaves God out," but this is never considered by creationists to imply atheism except in the case of one particular theory in biology.

I always wondered why they don't demand to include God in quantum mechanics for instance: ... and the electron tunnels through the barrier, so God will (or should I say insh'Allah).

262 posted on 03/28/2002 2:07:19 AM PST by BMCDA
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To: Quila
" He was not the greatest of men and clearly, as you've shown, had his faults. It is trying to attack his theories by showing his character that is out of line.

You are quite wrong on that. The examples given were from his published works. His mysoginism, racism and immoral barbarism are part of the theory of evolution. Darwin catered to the lowest instincts in man - that is the reason for its popularity.

263 posted on 03/28/2002 3:32:09 AM PST by gore3000
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To: gore3000
Gore, you haven't read all of my posts on this subject or all of that post. Transferring the problem to another planet is exactly what I'm doing.

Who says that it has to be answered here on earth? As I 've mentioned, it is quite clear that the ID math model of life origins on earth says that there isn't enough time for such complexity to have come about by naturalistic processes. This ID model isn't the only such model or speculation from those out of the evolutionary field itself. It is simply a recognition of a very REAL problem that's been known in the evolution camp for some time. The mathmaticians simply put numbers to an already known problem with the EvoTheory itself. It IS part of the scientific process to propose solutions to KNOWN PROBLEMS with any theory. The time/complexity problem has been a KNOWN PROBLEM with EvoTheory WITHIN ITS OWN FIELD for at least three decades.

The proposal that earth was "seeded" by intelligent life from outside our system says that life originated elsewhere. Once we get to this particular ELSEWHERE, it will probably be quite clear in that DIFFERENT SYSTEM how life came about.

There IS CONSIDERABLE data on EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL LIFE. There are renowned projects in the scientific community SEARCHING FOR extra-terrestrial life. They are funded with serious dollars by institutions of higher learning and by dollars from the government itself. There are RESPONSIBLE sightings of objects and phenomena that are unexplained but which are clearly indicative of ETI.

Do you believe that this vast universe contains only OUR intelligent life form? Saying "yes" to that question is as religious a statement as to say that the earth was created in 6 days.

If we have to wait to get the answers in perspective because the data doesn't fit here, then so be it. I'm an adult. I can handle it. Everything doesn't have to start and end with earth and man.

264 posted on 03/28/2002 3:33:04 AM PST by xzins
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To: Doctor Stochastic
The quote was not out of context. That Darwin said that he could not find examples of any systems that could not have resulted from gradual evolution does not mean it is true and is certainly not proof of it. What that last sentence shows is the rhetorical tactic of pointing out problems and dismissing them before others point them out. It is a form of innoculation against criticism.
265 posted on 03/28/2002 3:38:20 AM PST by gore3000
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To: Dimensio
Evolution itself is actually much simpler and makes no claim about human origins, it's just about biological populations.

You ask ten evolutionists what the theory of evolution is and you get twelve answers. Some theory! Evolutionists cannot even tell you what the theory is!

266 posted on 03/28/2002 3:41:29 AM PST by gore3000
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To: Goldhammer
Then I hope you won't object if I say Darwinism is a figment of your imagination.

Makes one wonder how an evolutionist could ever go on a plane! I mean, trusting one's life on what they consider a totally unproven theory seems totally insane!

267 posted on 03/28/2002 3:44:44 AM PST by gore3000
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To: Quila
I don't anticipate you proving anything to them either, not because of conspiracy, but because of lack of merit.

You constantly repeat the mantra that the theory of evolution is valid while at the same time you deny that any proof of it is possible. If there is no proof then how can it be a valid theory? If there is no proof, how can it be called science. If there is no proof how is it different from an atheistic/materialistic belief?

268 posted on 03/28/2002 3:48:30 AM PST by gore3000
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To: Quila
Pick any you like. Else you will say I picked the weakest.
269 posted on 03/28/2002 3:52:00 AM PST by gore3000
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To: Quila
However, the problem is that evolution has been saying that it is proven science for 150 years -me-

No it hasn't, you have. It is just accepted that evolution is the best scientific explanation so far,"

If there is no proof for it then it is not science, it is a belief. Your continued insistence that it is science in the absence of any proof shows that the claims of evolution are totally bogus and that it does not belong in the public schools but its own church.

270 posted on 03/28/2002 3:55:57 AM PST by gore3000
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To: Quila
Well, there goes the physics and chemistry I took. Come to think of it, there was no mention of God in all my computer science courses either -- they're out.

Wrong on several counts. Physics and chemistry are proven sciences, evolution is not. They also do not purport to prove that religion is false. In addition to which, you can teach biology perfectly well without teaching evolution. In fact, IMHO you can teach it better without teaching evolution.

271 posted on 03/28/2002 3:59:57 AM PST by gore3000
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To: Quila
A theory need not be proven in order to be useful.

Wrong, the applications of the theory prove the theory correct. Everything you see around you is proof, practical proof of some scientific theory. You think that if the theory of gravity was false we could have made it to the moon by using it? Of course not. As I said, you set a ridiculous standard of proof in order to excuse the failures of your theory.

Further, even by your own admission above, a scientific theory needs be useful. What benefits to mankind has the theory of evolution provided?

272 posted on 03/28/2002 4:08:07 AM PST by gore3000
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To: js1138
I quite understood what you are saying.  I disagree with your thesis, because things which happened before are not available for use if random chance is the deciding factor.  That's because each chance development, by itself, means nothing without the others to create an organism.  For example, the odds of each individual part of a cell being created by chance are astronomically high, but for all the parts of the cell being created simultaneously and in the right order by chance are absolutely mind-boggling.

Even after an organism is established, what has been created before is not necessarily available, because without any context, it is useless.  Which is why, perhaps, DNA contains so much junk.
273 posted on 03/28/2002 4:13:52 AM PST by Frumious Bandersnatch
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for later viewing
274 posted on 03/28/2002 4:14:23 AM PST by linemann
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To: Quila
Yet he also admitted his ignorance

How is that proof of anything? How is that proof of the correctness of his theory? When one bases a theory on false assumptions, the theory itself is false. A building cannot stand when its columns fall. Let's see how much of Darwin's phony theory has been disproven:

1. His racist brachyo-cephalic index for lower species has been shown to be a farce.
2. His numerous statements on apes being the progenitor of man have been shown to be false.
3. His theory that the characteristics of each parent "melded" in the children was proven wrong by Mendellian genetics.
4. The fossil record, 150 years later still does not show gradual evolution.
5. His hero, Malthus, the original chicken little, has been proven wrong by the tenfold increase in humanity while nutrition improved.

The biggest scientific refutation of Darwin though is that he never gave an iota of proof for macro-evolution and that now, 150 years later, the proof looks even less likely to ever be found than it was when he made his totally unfounded assumption.

275 posted on 03/28/2002 4:16:56 AM PST by gore3000
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To: Quila
As I said, if you're going to go ad hominem, let's start with the misogynist

As I already told you, the quotes were from his theory. His theory is mysogenist, racist and barbaric. Let me give another quote on the barbarism of the theory of evolution from the concluding paragraph of the "Origins':

Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals, directly follows. There is grandeur in this view of life,

Some grandeur! War and famine he calls grandeur! As I said, the bad qualities pointed out are intrinsic to the theory of evolution.

276 posted on 03/28/2002 4:26:37 AM PST by gore3000
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To: Quila
And check out the evolution of the horse for example.

I have, it's phony. The starting point of it is a re-classified and renamed skeleton from a hyrax, a totally different genus from the horse.

Furthermore, if evolution were to be true, the examples of gradual evolution in the fossil record should be the rule not the exception. An example or two of gradualism (even if they were valid) is not proof.

277 posted on 03/28/2002 4:33:06 AM PST by gore3000
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To: Quila
Don't forget that number includes Hitler.

Okay, this I have to see. Tell me how the murderer of Christians and Jews misused the teachings of the Bible. You make a lot of broad accusations, let's see you prove them with specifics.

278 posted on 03/28/2002 4:36:28 AM PST by gore3000
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To: Quila
Notice that none of these scientists are rejecting evolution theory, just arguing about its mechanisms.

No, they are arguing about the theory itself. The theory that Darwin posited. That evolution occurs gradually. The theories of Gould and Kirmura have just as many problems as those of Darwin but different ones. Gradual evolution is the foundation of Darwinism and it has been totally blown out even by its friends - thanks to as I mentioned when this discussion started Mendelian genetics.

279 posted on 03/28/2002 4:41:23 AM PST by gore3000
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To: Quila
In the end, ID will be redefined to be something I have to admit is possible, but completely untestable and outside the bounds of science...

Well put. One of the opponents of teaching "Intelligent Design" in Science courses criticizes it because it cannot be examined by the Scientific Method. "We don't study theology, simply because nobody has invented a 'theometer,'" she pithily stated.

280 posted on 03/28/2002 4:44:24 AM PST by TwakeIDFins
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