| This thread has been locked, it will not receive new replies. |
|
Locked on 04/24/2022 5:40:39 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childishness |
Posted on 03/06/2022 11:16:06 AM PST by CharlesOConnell
A man commits a serious crime, then he gets released. He has "paid his debt to society". But wait a minute, he's only ready for the half-way house. He's unlikely to get a prestigious job in his new prison suit coat, or any job at all; he has civil impediments, he can't vote or hold certain offices. His crime was serious enough that he won't be presumed to have been completely rehabilitated until he performs a notable service to society, or at least spends many years on the straight and narrow, so that his crime can be truly overlooked or forgotten.
In Catholic faith, your "debt to society" is paid by Jesus Christ on Calvary. It's called "eternal punishment", without Christ it keeps you from going to heaven. Supposing that you do take advantage of His sacrifice, you're truly sorry, have a firm purpose of amendment, if you relapse, you go again for forgiveness (to the Sacrament of Confession).
But your sin leaves a strong trace at another layer of impurity called "temporal punishment due to sin", like the civil impediments facing the half-way house prisoner. Because "nothing impure can enter heaven", there is a place or a state, a condition of purification to render you fit for heaven after Christ has finally saved you from hell. The Catholic Church calls it purgatory.
(Where is it in the bible? Where is the word Trinity in the bible? Where does it say that you only need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Many valid principles aren't stated explicitly in the bible, but it does say to "hold fast to the traditions you have learned, whether by word or by letter", because much of the Gospel wasn't written down, as Jesus only wrote in the sand, the majority of the Gospel was taught from word to ear to people who couldn't afford expensive books, the exceptions were what tended to get written down. But the implication that there is a purgatory, is contained in the bible--see the comments.)
The ex-con can receive a pardon or commutation of his probation from a Governor, if he performs some heroic deed, saving numerous lives, or, like Chuck Colson, performs a long-lasting, valuable community service helping numerous people who can't help themselves.
In the Catholic Church there are 2 ways for the residual, temporal effects due to sin to be expiated: suffering in this life, or after life, undergoing purifying suffering along with other people who will finally be saved, but have to suffer for long without the vision of God--that is what causes them their pain.
Their suffering isn't meritorious enough to grant their release, the saints in heaven and those on earth suffering and practicing virtue can pray for the suffering souls in purgatory. In no way is their release by slow transfer of suffering or practice of virtue, "buying heaven". It's a long, excruciating process.
How the misunderstanding arose that Catholics think they can buy their way into heaven, is involved with history more than 500 years old. For a millennium of Christendom between roughly 410 and 1410, there was a Medieval civilization with harmony between faith and government.
Many small farmers would cluster around the manor house of a military lord who would protect them, in exchange for a certain fixed obligation of labor and agricultural produce. In most cases, those "serfs" had much more leisure than factory workers of the industrial revolution; there were a large number of holy days without work, and except for planting and harvesting, there were long stretches of idle time.
Another large sector of the economy surrounded monasteries, where the monks developed most of the farming practices that stabilized the serfs and their manorial lords. The monks who worked those monastic lands were sworn to poverty, so that monasteries built up large accumulations of economic value over decades and centuries of labor.
At the beginning, when lands were being cleared and put into production there weren't prominent town fairs ruled by merchants and bankers. Money wasn't used for sustenance, not even much barter occurred, life was mostly agrarian.
Charity was woven into the economy of monasteries. It was estimated that you only need travel 12 miles in medieval England between monasteries, where you could get a meal and minimal lodging for free, based on need. And the charity was also spiritual, including the ancient Catholic principle of prayer for the dead, which is biblical. (See "prayer for the dead" in the original King James Bible in the comment.)
There were foundations and benefices for praying for the dead, that allowed a person of means to support monasteries' charitable works, and in proportional response the monks would pray for the souls of the donors.
It happened at the close of the middle ages, that militarily strong nobles cast their eyes on the labor value accumulated by the poverty-sworn monks of the monasteries, which those nobles perceived as monetary wealth, especially where gold and jewels had been donated by the devout to adorn churches.
(Protestant writer William Cobbett wrote in his 1824 "A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland", an anecdote, that an incredibly valuable, hand illustrated bible was stripped of it's bejeweled, gold cover, the much more valuable hand-illumined manuscript, thrown in the mud and trampled by horses hooves by raiders suppressing the monasteries in Henry VIII's England.)
A new religion growing up around this seizure of monastic lands and valuables, that sought to discredit the Catholic Church, spread the black legend that the "sale of indulgences" was abusive. But this was very exceptional. Today the stipend of a Mass said for the dead is $10.
—> That’s a silly perspective,
Paul warned against the false teachers and “those that crept in”…
So your silly is Biblical truth.
The basic meaning of Torah is instruction. Therefore, the word can apply to any number of writings. It refers to the what we think of as the first five books of the Bible, God’s Torah. It can refer to the Prophets and Writings. It can refer to the Apostolic writings. It can refer to what was known as the Oral Torah. There are many things that can be considered Torah, some of which we commonly think of as the law.
Everyone loves to quote portions of Acts 15, with the exception of v21. I’ve had multiple occurrences of people being completely surprised this verse even exists, because no one wants to grapple with it.
In this verse, the Jerusalem Council explained their reasoning for their decisions by noting that Mosheh was being read in the congregations, i.e. the synagogues, every Sabbath. The implication being the new gentile believers would learn about God’s Torah there with the Jewish community.
So, we have a dilemma. Preceding this verse are what appear to be clear statements that the gentiles are not required to obey Torah for salvation, and rightly so, since that was never the purpose of God’s Torah. It’s also described as a yoke with which they were unable to bear.
It does, however, immediately raise the question, to what Torah and to what yoke do the earlier verses refer? If, as is commonly understood, they refer to God’s Torah, then v21 seems a strange conclusion.
Which brings us back to my original question. Why would the Jerusalem Council commend the gentiles to go to Torah kindergarten?
Now are you sure this is your single point of focus??
I ask because every time I think I know what you are referring to, you shift to something else.
Paul is writing about the corinthians participating in pagan feasts.
In this regard, Paul is concerned that they will fall into pagan practices.
Full stop.
Everything in this section is to warn them against this.
Nothing about losing salvation.
Thank you for finally posting your claim with clarity.
Now it can be rejected fully. There were two issues at the Jerusalem council that were dealt with.
1. some were claiming Gentiles must be circumcized.
2. whether the requirements of being under the Law applied to gentile converts.
BOTH were rejected. Circumcision was not necessary for salvation and the requirements of the Law were not placed on gentiles.
The council then added 4 items for the purpose of harmony with Jewish converts and for unhindered evangelization to the Jews.
"The reason for these restrictions was this. In the weekly synagogue Scripture readings, teachers of the Mosaic Law had stressed Jewish scruples regarding these matters for generations. Consequently the Jews regarded them as extremely important. If Gentile Christians disregarded the convictions of these Jews, they would only alienate those they hoped to bring to faith in Jesus Christ or to growth in Christ (cf. 1 Cor. 8:13).
"If there was ever a good opportunity to say that the Gentiles were under the law this was it; for that would have settled the matter simply and quickly. But the apostles, who were Jews themselves, recognized that the law had no force any longer, and they did not try to impose it.”Absolutely no Torah Kindergarten for gentile converts. Totally false."James was not putting Gentile converts under the Mosaic Law by imposing these restrictions. He was urging them to limit their exercise of Christian liberty to make their witness to unsaved Jews more effective and their fellowship with saved Jews more harmonious."
(TC)
Be thankful always not to be like those Pharisees that Jesus warned us against, nor like those Israelites (“our fathers”) who were baptized and who all ate and drank of Messiah but were still overthrown and made shipwreck of their lives. We should heed their example per the Apostle Paul’s warning.
Dear FRiend, I already answered this question of yours.
Paul warned them because they could fall into paganism themselves.
.. and lead others into paganism.
And abandoning Christ and taking up paganism can entrap a Christian.
Nor does Paul ever say so when if it were true, this was a great place to say so.
It cannot harm their salvation. That is decided.
How very dishonest of you to misstate what she posted, so you can rail at her like a Pharisee.
It is always amazing to find someone who is a devout Catholic BUT is born again. Your religion is not producing many of those or any of those. BUT the Gospel of Grace can reach even beyond the cult of Catholicism.
I already dealt with those claims and agreed with them. It still doesn’t explain why they commended the gentiles to the synagogues to hear the Torah preached.
The BEMA Seat Judgment is real. It happens In Heaven for ALL those in the Body of Christ Believers. The way GOD brings fallen men and women into New Birth is through those He has birthed from above. They are converted by the witness of those He has converted, their lives. He is not using your Catholic rituals or rites or priestly utterances or incantations. He works on their spirit which is captured in their behavior mechanism. The behavior mechanism 'compares and contrasts'. Paul is warning the new converts to conform their behavior to a level which witnesses to those not yet converted. He is not warning so the new borns from above will not lose or forfeit their newborn status and be damned. That is a hard thing for a Cathoolic to grasp, being that that religion is a works based religion Christianity lookalike.
They did not.
So where in the scriptures do you find that the Council was ‘commending’ the new converts to synagogue or ‘torah kindergarten’ as you characterized it? This should be interesting, though I doubt you will deal with it directly, rather in obscure and obtuse sentences.
21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”Runge, S. E. (2008–2014). The Lexham High Definition New Testament. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
Jews had heard these 4 things condemned for generations.
It is also worth noting that when the letter was delivered, the gentiles rejoiced that they were not required to be circumcized, nor be under the weight of the law.
Nor did the letter require attendance in synagogue, nor were they required to study nor even read the Torah.
You made those things up and they do not appear in the text.
Absolutely no Torah Kindergarten for gentile converts. Totally false.
Is it the “kindergarten” concept you reject or the OT?
New Christians need to be trained in the OT to understand the NT.
Luk 24:44 Then He said, “When I was with you before, I told you that everything written about Me in the law of Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
If you wanted to know Jesus, you would camp in the OT permanently.
You don't have an answer to my question and are unwilling to formulate one. I expected such. May the Lord bless you and keep you.
Baruch haba b'shem YHWH
It still doesn’t explain why they commended the gentiles to the synagogues to hear the Torah preached.
Luk 24:44 Then He said, “When I was with you before, I told you that everything written about Me in the law of Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
We see a heavy distinction between the Jewish faith and Christianity. In the early churches perspective, Christianity is the completion. Paul preached to gentiles at the synagogue.
Everything you want to know about Jesus is in the OT.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.