I have one of these, hanging on the tree next to our picnic table...
Posted on 06/16/2021 4:47:03 PM PDT by Faith Presses On
After all, Satan's bait was that Adam and Eve would become as gods. And together with Satan, that would seem to them to be at least two or possibly three gods (if Satan was believed to be a god as well) against one.
Once again, it was a question, one meant, by meditation and discussion of the topic, to sharpen our understanding. One has always been free to simply answer no, or to answer no and explain why one believes so.
And what is a plan? Does it have to be elaborate, or very long thought out?
Satan DID seem to have his own plan.
And so Satan came up to Eve and tried to talk her into doing something she knew was wrong, and to entice her and fool her in various ways into doing it.
Simply speaking, a closely related question is whether or not possibly Eve and Adam saw in Satan’s lies the possibility of being God’s equal and challenging Him — an idea that Satan, since it was his own sin, would like to plant. They were allying themselves with Satan in his rebellion by disobeying God. How much, if at all, did they realize that at the time?
It was "this nonsense," which was response to your absurd postulation that "Satan and possibly Adam and Eve came up with, an unholy plan to expel God from the Garden so as to live there by themselves and do as they please," even though as said, there is zero substance for reading was "this nonsense," which was response to your absurd postulation that "Satan and possibly Adam and Eve came up with, an unholy plan to expel God from the Garden so as to live there by themselves and do as they please," even though as said, there is zero substance for any conspiratorial plan btwn the devil and A+E, as Eve instead the texts say was deceived by the devil into thinking she would be as God knowing God and evil, not expelling Him so they could so as they pleased, while Adam was not deceived but went along with Eve, and the devil's plan was to obtain power thru defeating the stewards of the earth, while Adam was not deceived but went along with Eve. Reading into the text any conspiratorial plan btwn the devil and A+E is simply not warranted and contrary to what we do see the devil as well as Eve seeking.
Moreover, online discussions are not the same as personal 3-d communication, since the range of expression is much more limited so that we do not see how the person is reacting in real time, and the sole focus is on what one said, and you insisted on this proposal. And you do not always know if the other poster is a faithful member of the body of Christ. As the RM wisely forewarns,
Open threads are in a town square format.
Posters may argue for or against beliefs, deities, religious authorities, etc. They may tear down other’s beliefs. They may ridicule. “Open” RF debate is often contentious.
It requires thick skin. A poster must be able to make his points while standing his ground, suffering adverse remarks about his beliefs - or letting them roll off his back.
Members of religions which are as much culture as belief sometimes take religious debate personally. If you keep getting your feelings hurt because other posters ridicule or disapprove or hate what you hold dear, then you are too thin-skinned to be involved in “open” RF debate. You should IGNORE “open” RF threads altogether and instead post to RF threads labeled “prayer” “devotional” “caucus” or “ecumenical.”
"And the rules here agree: discuss the issues but don’t make it personal."
I impugned the character of your argument, asking "Where do you come up with such nonsense," which is not what making it personal pertains to. But forgive me for being too harsh and reactionary. I tend to attack bad exegesis, but yours is nothing compared to that of cults, or even no less than virginity-exalting, marriage-demoting Jerome arguing that the even days of creation (specifically the second day) not being said to be good prefigured the marriage compact in destroying unity (yet "God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good"), and that the odd numbers of animals that Noah took into the Ark denote cleanness=virginity, while the even numbers of animals represent the uncleaness of marriage. So much for 2 x 2 evangelism,
"Just as in Jesus’ parable, the heir’s appearance suddenly birthed a simple but evil plan in the hearts and minds of the vine dressers, so might what Satan have said birthed a simple but evil plan, more in the heart than the head, for Eve and possibly Adam to challenge God because the lies he told rocked their world — God is lying to you, you can actually become like Him, and He’s keeping you from doing so."
Again, the text is clear on what Eve was told, and the psychological import of it is also easily seen, and while it is indeed the insinuation that God is selfishly, unjustly keeping deity back from her (rather than "sharing the wealth"), and thus she would be justified in disobedience in taking what was hers (reparations) - which premise is consistent with the originally presumption of the devil - yet the goal for Eve was to know good vs. evil, being as God, yet the goal of the devil was to become the god of this world, while Adam is described as not having any communication with either, but simply going along with his helpmeet.
There is no warrant for reading some demonic simple evil plan to take over the Garden to party, while you are missing the Big Picture, of the devil working to reign as he sought from the beginning, and even now in a world that perverts what God has ordained, and his very manifest and present tactics in seducing souls to do his bidding.
You are assuming Adam watched her. The Bible does not say he did.
He was with her.
How could he have not seen and heard what happened?
While we can see what the devil presumed, sought and how he operated from reading other texts, but we must be careful about reading details into the Gn. 3 account that simply are not there, and can be expected to be there if important, and nowhere is it actually said that the devil was present with Eve when she ate, which is the only time Adam come into the picture.
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. (Genesis 3:1-6)
In any case, Adam should have refrained from going along with his helpmeet, who did not help in this case.
It seems now like many times each day there’s another story in which the world is somehow trying to drive out the Lord and His Word, including from churches and Christian organizations. That’s also apparent throughout the rest of the Bible and must have at least been in Satan’s intentions in the Garden. And since it got into mankind’s, I have to believe it’s a question supported by some evidence that we may consider if it at least partly might have entered our hearts at that time.
“- yet the goal for Eve was to know good vs. evil, being as God, yet the goal of the devil was to become the god of this world, while Adam is described as not having any communication with either, but simply going along with his helpmeet.”
Yet God says in verse 17 that Adam did have communication with Eve.
Now I welcome your interpretations of texts as they are, but also other remarks as well.
Some might want to ask, for example, if we can, from what God has directly revealed, come up with some possibilities for what Eve might have said to Adam. Maybe not, but it’s a question. Maybe “hearkened to the voice of your wife” was meant more spiritually and metaphorically, to emphasize He didn’t listen to God.
And is there anything in what’s been revealed that might indicate whether or not Adam and Eve or Eve ever spoke to Satan the snake before that one fateful conversation? Can we get an idea too about why he might he have been in the Garden?
The Holy Spirit seems to have especially held back a lot here while showing us there was more to what happened, for instance in not revealing more about what it means that Adam was with Eve at the time, so we don’t know what he heard or didn’t, and also that Adam sinned partly in listening to the voice of his wife, though there’s no record of that exchange also.
Interesting too to consider that Adam and Eve might have been able to work together in the Garden until their punishments in being expelled from it drastically changed everything.
The Adam is the first recorded ‘liberal’, why he even blamed the Heavenly Father for giving him ‘that’ woman...
Which is why so much of this is how many angels can dance on the head of a pin territory.
It’s maybe interesting from an intellectual POV, but not productive otherwise.
Honestly, I have enough to deal with from the parts I can understand and are more clearly spelled out than to waste any more time in what appears to really be idle speculation about things we cannot know any more about.
So with that, I bow out of the conversation.
Have a good night.
Yes, and it is one example, too, of the wisdom of God and the truth of His Word and that He’s the one true God. Here we see when we do wrong, we blame the devil for tricking us, each other, and even God Himself. Rather than being flimsy superstition, what God provides us is infinitely more advanced “technology” than what some think might be visiting alien spacecraft far beyond our capabilities.
Well, thanks anyway for pointing out the part that Adam was with Eve.
“I believe God would have caused history to be completely different if Adam would have gone to God for help instead of seeing things as hopeless and gave into sin.” Adam hearkened to the voice of his wife, and his punishment was fully explained.
Adam and Eve did not live in a vacuum. History turned out exactly to plan for them. Their actions brought death into the world as well as mortality, and up to the time they were removed from the Tree of life they enjoyed communion with their God. Afterward at least to the extent we enjoy.
Reading and understanding the relationship post eating of the fruit is a study in the merciful relationship that God has with his children. That is contained in Genesis 3:16-24 and the fourth chapter of Genesis, which is in my opinion ages later in history and the Lord is still working with his children.
I have no idea how it would have turned out. We aren’t told that.
The Bible tells us the story. If things would have turned out differently than the history we have, surely that would have been a part of history as well. God does not deceive.
“However, God told them not to eat or they’d die.”
We really don’t know how much they understood what dying meant as they had not had the experience yet.
“It was after HE ate that the eyes of both of them were opened and they saw they were naked.”
Far more important than their nakedness, IMHO, was the Lord’s statement in Genesis 3:22. “Behold the man is become as one of us...
I have a bit of trouble with language in verses 23 and 24. In 23 it says the Lord God sent him forth from the garden... in contrast to 24 that is the more harsh comment “So he drove out the man.
You mean this 78?
Of course Satan had a plan. One doesn’t get very far without one. Satan got as far as influencing one third of the host of heaven to believe in HIS plan.
I’m sure the General felt that was sufficient a loss before the removal of Satan and those who hearkened to his voice.
Again I’m not quite sure what your point is. Which might be a part of what you perceive as a delay in comment.
All that doesn’t begin to address your deceptive “in Mormonism”. There ain’t no such thang. It is called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
The Prophet Mormon’s name is the title of a book that happens to be another Testament of Jesus Christ.
your religion says no one enters Heaven except they are approved by Joe Smith.
That comment is obviously an extremely loose translation. Care to share the chapter and verse?
You and I both know there is only one name given under heaven where man might be saved. Acts 4:12 if I’m not mistaken. Now if you were Elsie you might include the chapter and verse of your comment.
Very perceptive, they were the example God gave us of belonging as husband and wife.
I really don’t believe that it would be acceptable during a discussion in an adult Sunday school class held in person to turn to someone else and say, “Where do you come up with such nonsense?” Or, for that matter, what you just said to me here.
And the rules here agree: discuss the issues but don’t make it personal.
Amen and Amen.
Again, the quest of the devil from the beginning has been about obtaining power, under the apparent premise that as in the case of Job, God is not worthy of the exaltation and worship that He alone has, and thus the devil works to pervert what God has created and gives glory to Him, including seducing man to give allegiance to the devil. Certainly this means bringing not only the Garden under his dominion, but also the world by defeating the stewards of it. Thus the devil sought the Lord Jesus to worship him and could offer "all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them" to the Son of God if He would "fall down and worship" him. (Matthew 4:9) - though if this was Catholic he could say he was only giving the devil veneration, as they do when they fall down before a statue of Mary and ascribe to her attributes which are given to no created being but God only.
However, it is your insistent upon reading into Gn. 3 a conspiracy btwn the devil, Adam and Eve to kick God out so they could party (so to speak) which is simply not supported by the text and unwarranted. The text simply shows Eve being promised and believing that she could be as God in knowing good from evil and Adam just going along with her. Give it up and focus on the big picture of the devil's quest for power, and his apparent premise, weapons and tactics, both in perverting what God has ordained but seducing and persuading souls to recant faith and worship of God for the devil, via his proxy servants. Which will mean suffering:
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. (1 Peter 5:8-10)
"Yet God says in verse 17 that Adam did have communication with Eve."
No it does not. "And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life." (Genesis 3:17) Nowhere is Adam described speaking with Eve before they are of the forbidden fruit, nor even afterwards, except perhaps that "Adam called his wife’s name Eve." (Genesis 3:20) All you can do is infer that hearkening unto "the voice of thy wife" when "the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat," (Genesis 3:6) means they were conversing about this, but which is reading into the text what you can only surmise, and is no basis for your conspiracy fantasy.
"Some might want to ask, for example, if we can, from what God has directly revealed, come up with some possibilities for what Eve might have said to Adam... And is there anything in what’s been revealed that might indicate whether or not Adam and Eve or Eve ever spoke to Satan the snake before that one fateful conversation?"
Why or why must you insist on this? The premise and the purpose and prevaricating propaganda of the devil is quite manifest when you read all the texts relating to him, and there is simply no warrant for insistently reading your conspiratorial fantasy into the text of Gn. 3. Such tangents in going beyond what is written is how cults begin. But if you want fantasy:
Eve: "Adam, this fruit looks so beautiful, and will be delicious and will make us wise: eat of this fruit and we three will kick God out of this Garden so we can do as we please." Adam: "but we can already do as we please, eating of all the trees except from this one." Eve: "That is the point: that will make us to be as God, knowing good from evil." Adam: "So how is this going to kick God out since He created us, while He still owns the earth itself, and which we are already the stewards of it. " Eve: "Well, you see, then we be equal to God in power as well, and can fight him for dominion. It's 3 against one." Adam: I think it is 2 humans and one serpent against the almighty "US" who created us. Does not sound like a winning proposal to me. Besides, I am quite content to live in this beautiful Garden with God and all that He has blessed us with, including each other." Eve: but the serpent is trying to help us as unjust victims of God who refuses to share this wealth. Surely the this serpent deserves our trust." Adam: "And you have known this serpent for how long?" Eve: "let me put it this way, I am here to help you, remember? Either you go along with me or I am going to file for divorce and can try to find some other way to be fruitful and multiply." Adam," "Well, if you insist, but for the record I think you are deceived." Eve: "here, just try it and you will like it." The END.
Give it up.
I have one of these, hanging on the tree next to our picnic table...
It appears that purgatory hadn't been invented yet.
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