Posted on 03/15/2020 1:20:58 PM PDT by annalex
They didn't do that.
The second thing is that the labs were all given samples, from the very area, which everyone agreed beforehand, would make for a lousy sample, because it was where the Shroud had been patched (look up "French Invisible Reweaving").
That's because, the patching technique started out with new (at the time of the repair) thread, and wove it in with existing fabric, lessening the % of new fabric as it proceeded.
This would result in a gradient in the apparent age of the sample taken from different points in the Shroud where the weaving had been done.
Guess what. That's just what the C-14 testing found.
The other point, which should've been a total red flag that the C-14 testing results were invalid, is that the suggested ages for the Shroud based on the three samples, were outside of each other's error bars.
Even a freshman would fail due to that.
But like never-Trumpers, when one lie fails at attacking the Shroud, recycle another one.
You are ignoring the historic facts about the known first modern appearance of the Shroud in Lirey, France. It appeared in the possession of a Geoffrey de Charney, who, on his own dime, built a chapel to house it, used his own family's wealth to endow that chapel and refused to accept any donations from pilgrims at all. Geoffrey was the Standard Bearer of the King of France, the author of the first code of Chivalry for all knights, and was considered above reproach. He, in fact, almost bankrupted his family supporting that chapel. As a result, his widow wound up selling the Shroud to the Royal Family of Italy after his death. So your argument fails on several levels.
Add to this, Geoffrey's Great Great Grandfather Geoffroy de Charny (spelling was a matter of opinion back then) was the second in command of she IV Crusade and was present and heavily involved when the Hagia Sophia was looted by the Crusaders and Constantinople was sacked. Among the relics listed in the Hagia Sophia was the Shroud of Christ. . . it disappeared in the looting along with many other holy relics and objects of veneration into the hands of the crusaders. De Charny was later burned at the stake along along side Jacques de Molay, leader of the Knights Templar, in Paris.
Money did have something to do with the draft letter found in the archives of the Bishop of Trois, apparently being prepared to be sent to the Antipope in Avignon, France, complaining about the exhibition of the Shroud drawing pilgrims to the Chapel in Lirey, a letter which apparently was never sent as no companion letter was ever shown to have been received in the archives in Avignon or in the archives in Rome, nor a finished copy of the draft letter in Trois.
Which would you, as a pilgrim rather go see, the Purported Shroud of Jesus over in Lirey, or the bones of one of the hundreds of various saints in the Cathedral in Trois. . . especially If you were expected to drop money in the poor box to get a glimpse of another ho-hum saint's toe bones. . . and it was said you could see Jesus burial cloth without making a donation??? The Bishop was miffed they were bypassing his Cathedral's relic collection (and collection plate) and going to Lirey.
It is only in our generation that the dimensional message Jesus spoke to His disciples in John 14 is being discovered. There are real, physical realms of space and time not sensed by us which are referred to in the Word of God. In our age we are beginning to bump up against these realities because they exist IN the Universe God has created, and our science is now on a path to explore these realities, realities of dimensions which the Rabbi Nachmanidies wrote about nearly a thousand years ago which he discerned from his careful study of Genesis. There is even photographic evidence of such 'higher' dimensions, made by photographing the growth of crystals which indicate not sensed variable (dimensions) are an essential part of the crystalline growth function.
The evidence found in the shroud is only just being understood, using scientific methodology and techniques our generation has discovered. My feeble description of the technique used to 'map' the radiation pattern is but one example you should not dismiss so quickly. If you are grounded in the Word of God the authenticity or lack thereof will not be a deciding factor in your faith. However, to establish scientifically the authenticity of the shroud makes a very strong anchor from which faith can grow even in a scientifically skeptical heart. God desires that all men come to Christ, but only some will, usually because their pride is such a great impediment.
I’ve “looked into it” for a very long time, in fact, from the very fist time I heard about it many decades ago.
While it’s interesting as all heck I can’t get past a few things that don’t add up. Which I don’t feel like elaborating on at the moment. I’m on the faked side until It’s proven different.
As a born again Christian I don’t believe in idolatry of any sort. Praying to statues, counting beads, lighting candles and praying to artifacts is what I consider man made religion, not of God.
Please ping me to your forthcoming post.
I see nothing in what has been posted here to support the conclusion that anyone "needs" the Shroud to be real to verify their faith. It certainly does not verify of deny my faith.
Why do you feel the need to display your superiority of faith by raising that point in such a holier-than-thou rebuke, challenging the strength of someone's faith?
Did, or did not, God leave-behind the scriptures? The scriptures were given to us to bring us to faith and to support our faith when we have it. We do not worship them. We revere, honor, and study them. If the Shroud was indeed created by God as a testimony to what happened in that tomb 2000 years ago, how is it any different than another form of the scriptures that it should not be revered, honored, and studied?
No one prays to the shroud. Nor do those who believe the shroud is authentic need it to to support their faith. On the contrary, it is their faith that values what appears to be the authentic burial cloth of our Lord.
petitio principii. You are "begging the question", assuming the Shroud was made in the 14th Century, when there was a thriving market in hoax relics. However, there is a huge amount of evidence that the shroud predates that period, going back at least to the 6th Century, and earlier, when artistic evidence of what Jesus Christ archetypes looked like, and the revelation of the Image of Edessa when the Mandylion was found in the wall of the City of Edessa was revealed in 525AD after an earthquake destroyed the city gate. Jesus depiction suddenly changed to reflect what we see in the Shroud image at that time. . . following the legend of King Akbar and the Image of Jesus that was carried to him by the Apostle Thaddeus shortly after Jesus' death. . . which, if we provisionally accept it, provides a someone broken, punctuated, but connected historical provenance back to the mid-first century.
One could have every physical item that Jesus Christ touched in one’s possession, and still be condemned to hell. Because, one has to hear God’s words AND act on them.
Acts 2:38,... is it from heaven, or of men?
I have been studying the Shroud of Turin for nearly 50 years. I have yet to meet any one of my fellow students of the Shroud who prays to the Shroud. You impute to people something that is literally just not there.
Among the many types of people whom I have met at Shroud symposia, Evangelical Christians, Protestants, Catholics, practicing Jews, Agnostics, Atheists, Scientists, no-nothings, and skeptics, not a single one of them has ever professed a desire to worship the Shroud. Not a single one has expressed the thought that the Shroud had any ability to cure anyone of an affliction. None have ever stated it was imbued with any powers. The most any would say is that it allowed them to focus their thoughts on God, Jesus, or the sacrifice and suffering that Jesus undertook for us.
For me, for the first time, I began to grasp how horrific the flogging, scourging, and beatings were that were inflicted upon Jesus before he was crucified. Nothing in words are as evocative as what can be seen on the wounds all over the image on the Shroud. The Forensic Pathologists who have investigated the wounds seen on the image on the shroud are actually surprised how extensive they are. Some are skeptical that the man who received them would have survived that kind of scourging, let alone being crucified in addition to them.
There is no way that a Middle Age artist could have done this. Also, the carbon dating was taken from the 14th. century repair and not from the actual Shroud itself.
Page was scanned from the ICST-2017 International Conference On The Shroud of Turin.
Take Care and God Bless.
A very accurate statement.
Jesus told us to come to Him through faith.
The Shroud is NOT a hoax....deal with it. My FAITH trumps your wish for it to be a fake.
Thanks!
Annalex is not arguing the Shroud is fake. He's posted an article that it is authentic, a rebuttal of an earlier article by Spencer Alexander McDaniel claiming it was a medieval hoax, case closed. Annalex holds that it is authentic.
One of the primary scientists on the Skeptical side is Stephen D. Schafersman. Schafersman holds a B.S. in Geology and Biology from Northern Illinois University, a M.S. in Geology, and a Ph.D. in Geology.
Schafersman regularly calls scientists working in their fields of expertise “pseudoscientists” for doing science that proves the Shroud evidence to be authentic. Challenging their findings in their own fields with his “expertise” based on his degrees in “geology.”
Thanks so much for that scholarly article on the Turin Shroud. I am not qualified to judge all the technical points, but I believe in my Lord & Savior, His Crucifixion and Resurrection, so the Shroud is merely a bonus to the Miracle of Him.
I haven’t posted anything for a while, but recently I posted two articles about the Shroud.
If you want to be on this right wing, monarchy, paleolibertarianism and nationalism ping list, but are not, please let me know. If you are on it and want to be off, also let me know. This ping list is not used for Catholic-Protestant debates; all confessions are welcome.
I rarely post here though.
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