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What factors point to the Turin Shroud being a fake?
Quora ^ | March 7, 2020 | Jenny Hawkins

Posted on 03/15/2020 1:20:58 PM PDT by annalex

CONCLUSIONS

From its first recorded exhibition in France in 1357, this cloth has been the object of mass veneration on the one hand, and scorn on the other.

Appearing as it did in an age of unparalleled relic-mongering and forgery and, if genuine, lacking documentation of its whereabouts for 1,300 years, the Shroud would certainly have long ago been consigned to the ranks of spurious relics (along with several other shrouds with similar claims) were it not for the extraordinary image it bears.

The Shroud of Turin has a double image—that is, a superficial discoloration on the front surface of the cloth—closest to the body—and a fainter image on the back surface of the cloth—furthest from the body. Both images correspond to each other anatomically…

However, since the image is superficial and doesn’t “soak through” the fibers, there is no discoloration on the fibers between the front surface and back surface of the cloth…. Chemical and vapor explanations of this double image are inadequate, because none of them can explain [this] ….

In order for chemicals or vapors to reach the back surface of the cloth, they would have to go through the cloth leaving an obvious residue in the process. There isn’t any. [37]

That image is a 3-dimensional image that is distributed on parts of the cloth that did not come into contact with the corpse. It is a photographic negative, and no one knows how that could have been made 500 years before photography.

You can see inside the body, like an x-ray. The process that formed the image recorded both the inside of the hand (the skeleton) and the outside of the hand (the flesh surrounding the skeleton) at the same time.

The cloth is peppered all over in real blood.

Probably the single most significant fact about the shroud is that its image has never been fully duplicated.

Scientists and artists have worked overtime, and have shown no lack of imagination in attempting to recreate the image and demonstrate how it was done using corpses, spices, herbs, multiple kinds of paint, metal, cameras, projectors, radiation, lasers, various explosive releases of energy—the list is almost endless—yet none have ever succeded. [38]

The technique used to make the shroud remains unknown. [39]

In a statement which may not be as hyperbolic as it seems, Walsh (1963:8) observed: "The Shroud of Turin is either the most awesome and instructive relic in existence... or it is one of the most ingenious, most unbelievably clever, products of the human mind and hand on record."

Clearly, every remote possibility of forgery, hoax, accident, or combination thereof must be examined before a firm archaeological/historical judgement on this artifact can be proffered.[40] [41]

But that includes every bit of scientific data, not just some, with all of it weighed appropriately, not chosen to support a particular point of view.

I’m afraid that eliminates most of what Spencer wrote on this subject.

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TOPICS: General Discusssion; History
KEYWORDS: allofit; clothofturin; faithandphilosophy; godsgravesglyphs; hoax; middleages; renaissance; science; shroudofturin
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Related to Sorry, the Shroud of Turin Is Definitely a Hoax
1 posted on 03/15/2020 1:20:58 PM PDT by annalex
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To: Swordmaker; Future Snake Eater; OrangeHoof; Campion; agere_contra; alstewartfan; lepton; ...
You kindly posted on the previous provocative thread: Sorry, the Shroud of Turin Is Definitely a Hoax, originating from Spencer Alexander McDaniel's blog post.

This is a scholarly and massive response written by Jenny Hawkins on Quora. I only posted the CONCLUSIONS. Read the entire post here: What factors point to the Turin Shroud being a fake?

2 posted on 03/15/2020 1:26:06 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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3 posted on 03/15/2020 1:27:16 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Imagine an imaginary menagerie manager imagining managing an imaginary menagerie.)
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To: annalex

Carbon 14 picked up the soot from a previous fire and/or the sample allowed by the Vatican around the edge was from a very old repair where materials were added.


4 posted on 03/15/2020 1:28:04 PM PDT by Vaquero ( Don't pick a fight with an old guy. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.)
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To: annalex; Alamo-Girl; albee; Ambrosia; AnalogReigns; AnAmericanMother; Angelas; AniGrrl; annyokie; ..
Article on the Shroud of Turin's authenticity.—PING!


Shroud of Turin
PING!

If you want on or off the Shroud of Turin Ping List, Freepmail me.

5 posted on 03/15/2020 1:28:52 PM PDT by Swordmaker (My pistol self-identifies as an iPad, so you must accept it in gun-free zones, you hoplophobe bigot!)
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To: annalex

I’ve studied this extensively. I agree with Hawkins’ debunking if the debunking. A few other points in favor of authenticity: 1. I think that the shroud, including the herringbone pattern,is plainly depicted in the Pray Codex, circa 1200, before the earliest C14 date. 2. The studies of pollen grains showing pollen from plants along the believed route of the shroud over the centuries: Israel, Asia Minor, Constantinople, Greece, France, Italy. Prevailing winds in the Mediterranean basin are westerly so there is no way that pollen from Israel could have migrated to Europe to deposit on the cloth. 3. Even beyond the other visual phenomena, in the photos I can see what is interpreted as a coin in the anatomical right eye. It’s identical to a certain type of coin issued by Pontius Pilate, and in fact there exist examples of a subset of the coin that has a misspelling. The image on the shroud is one of these. That level of detail by a forger is literally impossible to contemplate


6 posted on 03/15/2020 1:41:21 PM PDT by j.havenfarm ( Beginning my 20th year on FR! 2,500+ replies and still not shutting up!)
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To: annalex
Jesus is real, the shroud is a fake.

Very common to fake stuff about Jesus starting around 100 AD or so. If you had an artifact, (fake or real) then it brought more parishioners to your church which always meant more money.

7 posted on 03/15/2020 1:42:17 PM PDT by Bullish (Covfefe Happens)
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To: annalex
Did you know that Pope Pius XII was a Hitler and Nazi sympathizer? Why that was proven in the early 1960's play, The Deputy. The knowledge that he saved so many Jews that he made Oscar Schindler and Raoul Wallenberg pikers by comparison matters not regarding his underlying convictions.

The same holds true with the Shroud of Turin. I don't know if it's real. I choose to believe that it is. So many of the debunking arguments have been debunked. Does that make me right? Perish the thought. I wasn't there when it was weaved.

It's always so easy to tell people, in matters of faith, that they are dolts and rubes. I find the faithless to be a tedious lot.

8 posted on 03/15/2020 1:43:59 PM PDT by stevem
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To: annalex

Thank you. The analysis you point to is detailed and credible.


9 posted on 03/15/2020 1:45:21 PM PDT by Rockingham
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To: annalex
I'll post "What Nineteen Factors Prove the Shroud Being Real" when I return from my business trip. I spent three and a half days at a seminar with leading scientists in their field (some molecular) that proved there is no way the Shroud could have been produced using Middle Age technology. Top of the list is: The image is "on" not in the fibers as would a paint produce. That is just one, on another note. You can't see any image detail at all up close as you would in a painting. In a painting the closer you get the more detail. You have to stand back at least eighteen feet to see any sort of image at all, as shown below:

Full_Burial_Cloth

That image is "burnt" not painted and was photographed twenty feet away.

10 posted on 03/15/2020 1:45:42 PM PDT by SkyDancer ( ~ Just Consider Me A Random Fact Generator ~ Eat Sleep Fly Repeat ~)
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To: annalex

One other detail anti-Shroud people fail to notice or just blow off: There are nail prints in the wrist not the palm as ALL paintings and statues show.


11 posted on 03/15/2020 1:49:27 PM PDT by SkyDancer ( ~ Just Consider Me A Random Fact Generator ~ Eat Sleep Fly Repeat ~)
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To: annalex
There is really only the one—the Carbon-14 dating. It’s being questioned, but so far, it still stands.

No, the C14 test has been falsified in several peer-reviewed scientific and statistical mathematical journal articles which demonstrate the test sampling was flawed from the beginning. The test samples failed the Chi-square statistical test which is a standard C14 test used to demonstrate that the sample is homogenous with the item being sampled. The sub-samples cut from a single master sample cut from the edge of the Shroud failed in comparison with themselves, failing to show they were homogenous with each other! This was a huge red flag that something was contaminating them.

The soot had nothing to do with it, that is cleaned off, but a patch with more modern threads/material invisibly rewoven into original material could skew the dating if there were enough more modern C14 in the newer material to outweigh the older, depleted C14.

Those who dispute the chemically tested findings that alizarin, madder root dyed cotton threads with which had been retted with a more modern method using Alum were found on one side of that area as opposed to un-dyed, older raw, flax based linen on the other, base their disagreement on just claiming those scientists are merely lying, despite the clear evidence presented in their peer-reviewed published papers. Essentially, they wish the evidence away, refusing to see it, claiming it just doesn't exist.

12 posted on 03/15/2020 1:51:36 PM PDT by Swordmaker (My pistol self-identifies as an iPad, so you must accept it in gun-free zones, you hoplophobe bigot!)
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To: Bullish
The most convincing point for my reasoning is the way the image as a negative is deposited in the cloth. When a radiologist examined the negative effect he/she concluded that the energy source for the 'burn' into the cloth came from a point source between the two layers (front and back images simultaneously 'burned into the cloth), leaving an angle of emission path which is consistent across the imagery, front and back. The image pattern was deposited from a point source of energy which radiated outward, front and back, on specific radiation vectors consistent with a point of origin

Your flat denial is foolishness until you can duplicate the evidence using 12th or 13th century technology.

13 posted on 03/15/2020 1:58:04 PM PDT by MHGinTN (A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
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To: annalex

Please remove me from any pings of blasphemous and anti-Christ threads.

Signed....a Christian rejecting your false conclusion.


14 posted on 03/15/2020 2:01:44 PM PDT by newfreep ("INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - DAVID HOROWITZ)
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To: annalex

A very detailed rebuttal. Thank you!


15 posted on 03/15/2020 2:04:03 PM PDT by Albion Wilde (Party that freed sIaves, passed Civil Rights is called racist by the party that started the KKK.)
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To: annalex

Before I give my comment, I will be very upfront that I am Jewish.

Here’s my comment: if you need a material object to verify your faith then your faith is not terribly strong. This applies whether you are Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or any other faith. You either believe, or you don’t. That said, every single person is going to have some doubts, that is part of our nature and has been purposely woven into that nature by God - because if there was no doubt then there would be no free will.

I do not know whether or not the shroud of Turin is what it is purported to be, or not. Speaking as a person of (most definitely imperfect) faith, I don’t think that it should matter one way or the other.


16 posted on 03/15/2020 2:06:40 PM PDT by Ancesthntr ("The right to buy weapons is the right to be free." A. E. van Vogt, The Weapons Shops of Isher)
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To: MHGinTN

Call me a doubting Thomas if you want. Fakery was rampant in that period.


17 posted on 03/15/2020 2:11:32 PM PDT by Bullish (Covfefe Happens)
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To: annalex

Fascinating discussion.

I lean towards the shroud being authentic if for no other reason than it is unique. The same cannot be said for pieces of the true cross or nails from the crucifixion.

The shroud cannot be reproduced. Again, unique.

Does my faith depend on it as others sneer? No. Why would it?
NON believers are the ones who should wonder if their beliefs are wrong.


18 posted on 03/15/2020 2:12:01 PM PDT by Adder ("Can you be more stupid?" is a question, not a challenge.)
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To: Vaquero

I’ll tell what was a fake, the Carbon test that’s what.


19 posted on 03/15/2020 2:15:47 PM PDT by gibsonguy
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To: Bullish

You couldn’t be more right. Lots of fakery. But that doesn’t mean this is fake. At its simplest: an image of a person consistent with Gospel discussion of Christ crucified. Scorched, not painted, into the top few fibrils, that is the fibers that make up thread. Not reproducible by any technology we have, let alone that available in the Middle Ages. And on and on and on. My point being look into it and draw your own conclusions, but just slapping the fakery label on it is not supported by the evidence or the scholarship


20 posted on 03/15/2020 2:20:05 PM PDT by j.havenfarm ( Beginning my 20th year on FR! 2,500+ replies and still not shutting up!)
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