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To: metmom
One would have to lay his hand flat over so many passages of Scripture, not even taking a peek, in order to say there is nothing in them that refers to the Mother of the Messiah.

Christians North, South, East and West, have celebrated these passages as glimpses and celebrations of Mary, in hymns and poetry, and as illustration, motif and prophecy, for millennia, and still do.

The Mother of the Incarnation is great, only because the Incarnation is great beyond all telling.

And the Virgin of Nazareth, daughter of Abraham, of the House of David, in her wonderful hymn sees these blessings extending from the far past to the far future.

Knowing she has conceived Christ, she, the mother of Our Lord, say this is "according to His promise to our ancestors, to Abraham and to his descendants forever.

Ancestors and descendants.

"Behold, all generations will call me blessed."

The woman and the rest of her offspring
those who keep God's commandments and bear witness to Jesus.
Revelation 12:17

923 posted on 06/23/2019 7:40:34 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, and patient. 2 Tim 2:24)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
The woman and the rest of her offspring those who keep God's commandments and bear witness to Jesus. Revelation 12:17

So Mary did have other children then.

Yes, Mary is blessed, but any woman who had the privilege of bearing the MEssiah would say the same.

And God has blessed ALL of us in Christ with the same grace with which He blessed Mary.

The word grace used in this passage in Luke is used in one other place in the Bible and that is Ephesians 1 where Paul tells us that with this same grace, God has blessed us (believers) in the Beloved. IOW, we all have access to that grace and it has been bestowed on us all.

http://biblehub.com/greek/5487.htm

Luke 1:28 And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!”

Ephesians 1:4-6 In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Greek word “grace”

charitoó: to make graceful, endow with grace

Original Word: χαριτόω

Part of Speech: Verb

Transliteration: charitoó

Phonetic Spelling: (khar-ee-to'-o)

Short Definition: I favor, bestow freely on

Definition: I favor, bestow freely on.

HELPS Word-studies

Cognate: 5487 xaritóō (from 5486 /xárisma, "grace," see there) – properly, highly-favored because receptive to God's grace. 5487 (xaritóō) is used twice in the NT (Lk 1:28 and Eph 1:6), both times of God extending Himself to freely bestow grace (favor).

Word Origin: from charis

Definition: to make graceful, endow with grace

NASB Translation: favored (1), freely bestowed (1).

Matthew 11:11Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

The kind of exaltation which Catholicism does of Mary is just flat out wrong.

932 posted on 06/23/2019 10:12:48 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

I went down into the garden of nuts to see the fruits of the valley...


951 posted on 06/23/2019 11:58:09 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
"Behold, all generations will call me blessed."
 
 
 

HMMMmmm…
 
Psalm 127:3-5
 Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward. 4 Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one's youth. 5 Blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them!
 
 
 
99.9% of Catholics will NEVER call Mary frigid.

954 posted on 06/23/2019 12:02:51 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
The woman and the rest of her offspring
955 posted on 06/23/2019 12:04:03 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; metmom; MHGinTN
all generations will call me blessed

Of-course all generations will call Mary blessed, because it is written that she was. While Leah said, "Happy am I, for the daughters will call me blessed," (Genesis 30:13) yet Mary exceedingly was by being chosen to bear the incarnated Christ, her creator. And like as Jael said, "Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent," (Judges 5:24) of Mary it is said, "blessed art thou among women." (Luke 1:28)

The problem is what is does not say, which is almost everything Catholics attribute to Mary!

The woman and the rest of her offspring those who keep God's commandments and bear witness to Jesus. Revelation 12:17

Why do you persist in thinking of a mortal far, far, far, above that which is written, and thus requiring reading into Scripture a desired conclusion? What reduce Scripture to being an abused servant, compelled to support what the NT nowhere is shown to believe? Faced with the utter absence of any actual reference to Mary after Acts 1:14, let alone special devotion to Mary in Acts and all the epistles, Catholics force the "women" of Rv. 12, to conform to Mary when it does not.

That Christ is the is the child who is to rule with an iron rod" is clear, but which does not make Mary to be the women, and the typology fits Israel. And he [Joseph] dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? (Genesis 37:9,10)

The 12 stars on the woman’s head represents the 12 patriarchs, “and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.” (Rm. 9:5) And which was and will be persecuted, but God keeps her through it. And Israel is likened to being a women and mother:

For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers. (Jeremiah 4:31)

Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail. Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the Lord shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies. (Micah 4:9-10)

I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman. (Jeremiah 6:2)

The women of Rv. 12 travailed (ōdinō: (cf. Gal. 4:19, 4:27) in birth and tormented (basanizō: cf. Mat. 8:6;Rev. 9:5; Rev. 20:10; Mat. 8:29; Mar. 5:7; Luk. 8:28; Mar. 6:48; Mat. 14:24; 2Pe. 2:8) to be delivered of her child, which was Christ, but which women cannot be the Mary of Rome, as it teaches that since she was sinless,

just as the rays of the sun penetrate without breaking or injuring in the least the solid substance of glass, so after a like but more exalted manner did Jesus Christ come forth from His mother's womb without injury to her maternal virginity...To Eve it was said: In sorrow shalt thou bring forth children. Mary was exempt from this law, for preserving her virginal integrity inviolate she brought forth Jesus the Son of God without experiencing, as we have already said, any sense of pain. - CATECHISM OF THE COUNCIL OF TRENT PART 1: THE CREED; Article III. http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tcreed03.htm

In the preface of the votive Mass in honor of Mary at the foot of the cross, we read the words: “She who had given Him birth without the pains of childbirth was to endure the greatest of pains in bringing forth to new life the family of the Church.” http://www.cst-phl.com/marian.html

“In conceiving you were all pure, in giving birth y ou were without pain.” (St. Augustine, Sermone de Nativitate )

Thus to take this as the women literally giving birth then you must contradict RC teaching that Mary had no anguish and pain of birth. In addition, no where is Mary said to uniquely be the mother of all Christians, but as said, Christ makes all such disciples

In addition, while the women can be seen to be Israel and thus consequently, the church, Rev. 7:4-8; cf. 14:1-4 also shows John's focus is on Israel, that of the remaining descendants of Abraham during the tribulation which turn to the Lord, whose coming the CCC teaches awaits his recognition by all Israel, whose acceptance means life from the dead, and that this full inclusion of the Jews will be in the wake of the full number of the Gentiles being saved.

Scripture clearly teaches that,

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (Romans 11:25-27)

Thus Rev. 7:14 speaks of a remnant of these in the tribulation period, and to which other prophecies relate:

And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God. And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: (Ezekiel 20:34-37)

And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers. And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed. And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have wrought with you for my name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord God. (Ezekiel 20:42-44)

The nations that persecute the remnant of Jews who turn to Christ are led by the devil, and which God protects by providing a place in the wilderness for 3.5 years, while in the end the Lord wuill destroy these persecuting peoples.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (Zechariah 12:9-10)

And even if we allowed this as a possible mention of Mary, it does not present the Mary of Catholicism, and it remains that there is only one manifest mention of her the inspired record of the NT church, (Acts 1) in stark contrast to her hyper exaltation and centrality in Catholic devotion, thinking of her far far above that which is written.

I will also let Catholic scholars themselves speak:

The RC NAB Bible and The New Catholic Answer Bible commentary and certain other RC sources do not make the women of Rv. 12 to be Mary:

The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from Genesis 37:9-10) symbolizes God's people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (Rev 12:5) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (Rev 12:6, 13-17); cf Isaiah 50:1; 66:7; Jeremiah 50:12...Because of Eve's sin, the woman gives birth in distress and pain. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P12V.HTM

Raymond Brown and J.A. Fitzmyer, editors of the Jerome Biblical Commentary (2:482):

a woman: Most of the ancient commentators identified her with the Church; in the Middle Ages it was widely held that she represented Mary, the Mother of Jesus. Modern exegetes have generally adopted the older interpretation, with certain modifications.

In recent years several Catholics have championed the Marian interpretation. Numerous contextual details, however, are ill-suited to such an explanation. For example, we are scarcely to think that Mary endured the worst of the pains of childbirth (v. 2), that she was pursued into the desert after the birth of her child (6, 13ff.), or, finally, that she was persecuted through her other children (v. 17). The emphasis on the persecution of the woman is really appropriate only if she represents the Church, which is presented throughout the book as oppressed by the forces of evil, yet protected by God. Furthermore, the image of a woman is common in ancient Oriental secular literature as well as in the Bible (e.g., Is 50:1; Jer 50:12) as a symbol for a people, a nation, or a city. It is fitting, then, to see in this woman the People of God, the true Israel of the OT and NT.

Roman Catholic theologian Father Hubert J. Richards agrees that the Revelation 12 woman refers to Israel. His book, What The Spirit Says to the Churches: A Key to the Apocalypse of John, carries the Nihil obstat and Imprimatur of the Roman Catholic Church.13 Concerning the woman of Revelation 12, Father Richards writes:

The vision proper, then, begins with the figure of a Woman clothed with the sun and the stars. We think naturally enough of our Lady, to whom this description has traditionally been applied. After all, we say, of whom else could John be thinking when he speaks of the mother of the Messiah? However it is clear from the rest of the chapter that this interpretation will stand only if the verse is isolated: what follows has very little relevance to our Lady. Nor is it any honor to Mary to apply any and every text to her without thought....

Who then is she? The source to which John has turned for his imagery throughout this book is the Old Testament. There, the Woman, the bride of God who brings forth the Messiah, is Israel, the true Israel, the chosen people of God. It is quite certain that this is what is in John's mind when he begins his description with a quotation from Gen. 37:9-10, where the sun and moon and twelve stars represent the twelve-fold Israel.

This Woman will later be contrasted with the Harlot (the collective personality of Rome, opposed to the true Israel), and will be specified at the end of the book, again appearing in light and splendour for her marriage with the Lamb, as the twelve-gated Jerusalem which forms the new Israel. In fact the number twelve occurs so frequently in the Apocalypse in reference to Israel that it cannot have a different meaning here. All the early Fathers of the Church interpreted these verses as about the Israel of God.14 See http://www.eternal-productions.org/PDFS/Revelation12Woman.pdf

Bye.

974 posted on 06/23/2019 1:17:42 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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