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To: Wuli

“Your circular logic: “The Catholic Church can never be in schism for the Church cannot be in schism to herself” is not logical.”

It’s entirely logical based on what the Church is.

“It presumes there can be only one condition - an institutional church - clergy at all levels - that is true, and acting in truth to the foundation and faith of the church.”

No, it presumes that the Church was founded by God and is the Body of Christ. In a schism you only have some members who willingly choose to set themselves against the Body. Thus, the Church can never be at schism against itself for there is no logical way for the Church to BE ITSELF and BE OPPOSED TO ITSELF at the same time. A thing cannot BE and NOT BE at the same time. The Church cannot BE ITSELF and BE AGAINST ITSELF at the same time. That would be a logical impossibility. What some members of the Church choose to do by going against the Church as they choose schism in no way means the Church is set against itself. Again, that would be a logical impossibility.

“The term schism implies there is a looming separation between the later and the former.”

False. The term schism means THERE IS A SEPARATION where someone in the Church has chosen to follow someone other than the appointed authority. Schism does NOT suggest a “looming separation”. It means there IS a separation. Here for instance is the definition of “Schism” found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church in its entirety: “SCHISM: Refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff, or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him (2089).” You see your error? There’s no “looming” there. It’s “Refusal”. This is why other authors, being more careful to detail, are using the term “de facto schism”. Hence, the title of the article we are all commenting on now. Do you see the difference?

“Of course that can happen, though I am not making a judgement that it is happening.”

The Church cannot stand opposed to herself. That is a logical impossibility. The Body of Christ is always ONE. Some members might choose schism, but the Body of Christ always remains ONE.


17 posted on 04/01/2017 6:43:54 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Apparently I'm still living in your head rent free. At least now it isn't empty.)
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To: vladimir998

“No, it presumes that the Church was founded by God and is the Body of Christ.”

That is the entire problem with Catholics. The Roman Catholic Church is a human institution founded by humans, humans who believed, or taught, they were inspired by G-d AS TO WHAT WAS CORRECT BELIEFS ABOUT G-D. Being inspired by G-d, as all who believe in G-d hope they are, is not the same as “founded by G-d”.

The Body of Christ is a spiritual body that includes humans that are living, but it is not, singularly, any human earthly institution but may see members of that body in various human religious institutions.

“The Church” is not “founded” on “Peter” “the rock” (a play on words with the name Peter). It is founded on Peter’s answer to Christ as to what IS the foundation of His Church, and that answer (the foundation) is the belief, faith and knowledge that He is the Christ. That, the answer, not Peter, is what Christ declared to be the foundation of His Church. And who is in “the body of Christ”. Christ knows.

That said, the very human institution of the Roman Catholic Church can be “in schism”.


18 posted on 04/01/2017 8:18:24 AM PDT by Wuli
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