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To: Mrs. Don-o
>"...born and lived without sin..."< Please checkout a relevant item in Biblical Koine Greek (LINK). You may not agree with it, but can't deny it's Biblical and denotes something unique: the title Kecharitomene is used nowhere else in any Biblical or non-Biblical Greek literature. I believe it's inspired.

I checked out the link you provided and you've interpreted/represented the definition of Kecharitomene incorrectly.

The Greek in Luke 1:28 reads literally: καὶ εἰσελθὼν πρὸς αὐτὴν εἶπεν Χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ Κύριος μετὰ σοῦ....greetings, you favored with grace, the Lord is with you.

The definition for the root word χαριτόω means I favor, bestow freely on.

A derivative of the word is used twice in the NT. Once in Luke and the other in Ephesians 1:6. The verse in Ephesians

Eph 1: 5-6:

5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

In both instances it is God who is doing the bestowing...not us....not Mary. Only God.

Also, from your link you posted:

In Luke 1:28 "Kecharitomene" is nominative or titular, since it follows the greeting "Chaire" ---"Hail [name or title] --- thus the name would automatically be capitalized in English translations.

It is not a title. That is a very, very big twisting of the text by catholicism to elevate Mary to something she is not.

Additionally, Mary is always addressed as Mary. There is no name change as catholics alledge.

Let's deal with the allegation catholics make that Χαῖρε is some sort of title. It is not. It is in the imperative mood.

Wallace(Greek Grammer Beyond the Basics) notes the imperative can be used in a stereotyped manner in which it has suppressed its original injunctive force. The imperative is reduced to an exclamation. This occurs especially in greetings. (Wallace p493)

71 posted on 10/20/2014 3:51:18 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: ealgeone
I'll be out all day and not have much time for responses, unfortunately. Thank you for the time and thought you have brought into this.

You may be surprised that I find it easy to agree with (almost) everything you've said and still make my point. I do not disagree with it. Nothing in the (excellent) Scriptures you cited, refutes what I wrote.

Quickly:

(1) Grace is bestowed upon Mary. Of course. Nobody denies that.

(2) Kecharitomene is related to two other NY woords also commonly translated "full of grace" and applied to two other personages: St. Stephen and Our lord Himself. Again, no problem. Nobody ever alleged that Mary is the ONLY person full of grace.

What's interesting here is the three distinct grammatical forms of the word (translated as phrases in English) which distinguish between being full of "grace" in three particular ways.

You would not assume that St. Stepehn is full of grace in exactly the same that Or Lord is, wold you? I would hope not.

We've got Jesus Who is full of grace because He is the source of all grace; we've got St. Stephen being filled with grace as the gratuitous gift of Our Lord; and we've got Mary, also being filled with grace as the gratuitous gift of Our Lord, but being filled in a plenary way.

as to whether Kecharitomene is a name or title: weill you look art the passage? She is being addressed a Kecharitomene: Hail, Kecharitomene. The word that comes after the salutation "Chaire" is the person being saluted, in this case the person is "Kecharitomene." The word after the form of address is the person being addressed.

The fact that Mary is always thereafter addressed as "Mary" does not mean that "Kecharitomene" is not also her name or title.

Jacob was often still referred to as Jacob, even after his name was made Israel.

Simon Bar-Jonah was addressed or referred to as Simon, as Peter, as Simon Peter, and as Kephas, after he received the name Kephas.

In other words, the Bible always shows people still being addressed by their original name.

If I said "Greetings, ealgeone" you couldn't very well say, "That doesn't refer to me: none of my family or friends is recorded as calling me that." No, we know it refers you, either as name or as title, simply because it comes after the salutation.

Nobody knew of Mary being addressed as Kecharitomene until years and years later, when she told St. Luke. It's quite possible nobody on earth --- nobody but the Angel Gabriel --- ever spoke to her in this way. It is a consecrated name similar to that which is referred to in Revelation:

"I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it” (Revelation 2:17).

We will all be eventually given names which reveal who we are in God's eyes. Not your legal name. Not your FReeper name. It's the real name which tells who you really are. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it” (Revelation 2:17). Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/white-stone-new-name.html#ixzz3GmOxI73Z

77 posted on 10/21/2014 5:08:05 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Judica me, Deus, et discerne causam meam de gente non sancta.)
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