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To: MDLION

“Finally, Catholics don’t worship Mary as a goddess but they honor her as the Mother of God.”

Fine, Catholics should stop saying the Rosary in her name or genuflecting in front of her statues...because from where I stand there seems to be a very thin line between the “honoring” and “worshiping” of Mary as Catholics describe and practice it!

When Stephan was stoned and just before he died, he forgave those who stoned him and then declared that he saw Christ at the right hand of the Father before giving up the ghost. I guess he died an orphan because he didn’t say he saw Mother Mary hanging around or mentioned her in the sermon that got him stoned. None of the Pauline letters include benedictions or salutations inclusive of “ the name of Mary full of Grace” or even the ones written by Peter, John, Jude, ect. When the Bible was put together in its current form, where were the books written by the apostles exclusively about Mary...certainly there were traditions in “formation” concerning Mary at that time...why was it not all written down as Holy Scripture and included? Were the early apostles asleep and inadvertently inattentive to the role of Mary as “Mother of God”? Why no books by them or by John about the final disposition of Mary (by John who took Mary into his house)? No real eye witnesses to the ascension of Mary or anything written on a parchment written by John,Paul, or Peter?

The written scripture is all we have to verify truth! If you want to make big stink about the apochrypha vs’s KJV...fine...even the apocrypha gives no written support for Mary worship(or adoration or “honoring”...whatever)!


397 posted on 09/15/2014 1:43:22 AM PDT by mdmathis6
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To: mdmathis6
The written scripture is all we have to verify truth! If you want to make big stink about the apochrypha vs’s KJV...fine...even the apocrypha gives no written support for Mary worship(or adoration or “honoring”...whatever)!

And you just sabotaged your own argument by conflating all of those terms. If words have no meaning then why the appeal to the written Word?

398 posted on 09/15/2014 1:46:34 AM PDT by JPX2011
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To: mdmathis6

Mary was still alive when Stephen was stoned. Why would he see her in Heaven?

You’re throwing out the angel’s words to Mary because they’re from Luke and not Paul or John or Jude?

You talk about praying the Rosary but avoid the words Gabriel and Elizabeth spoke to Mary which are half a Hail Mary.

“The written Scripture is all we have to verify Scripture.”

The Scriptures weren’t even complete until the death of John about 100-120. The earliest attempts to write them was only about three hundred years or so later when the Church guided by the Holy Spirit decided on the 73 books of Scripture among several hundred. Even if a few Bibles were starting to be written by hand, there was no ability of most Christians to have a Bible until the invention of the printing press a thousand years later. All these souls who didn’t have a Bible to read followed the Church, not their own interpretation of Scriptures they didn’t have access to.

“Mary as ‘Mother of God’”

In Luke, Elizabeth calls her “the Mother of my Lord”. “Lord” is a clear reference to Jesus’ Divinity. If Mary is not the Mother of God, then either Christ is not God (and that is the denial of his divinity- the Arian heresy) or Mary is not his Mother (and that is the denial of his humanity - the Docetist heresy).

The early Christians were said to have believed that Paul almost had the sanctity of an angel. Almost, but not quite. You’re (and many others) just not contemplating deeply enough the implications of an angel hailing a human being and calling her “Full of Grace”. Someone can only be “Full” of Grace if there were no sin of any kind present to obstruct Grace.

Do you really think God could incarnate in the womb of a sinful creature? How would that creature not be annihilated? In the Old Testament, when those who weren’t priests touched the Ark of the Covenant, they would fall over dead, fallen, unredeemed human beings were so unworthy at that time. God is outside time and to Him all things are present. In view of the Redemption that he saw would be accomplished, He preserved His Mother from sin to provide a suitable incarnation place worthy of His Divine Son.


908 posted on 09/17/2014 12:08:41 AM PDT by MDLION ("Trust in the Lord with all your heart" -Proverbs 3:5)
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