No, it’s not a question of being right to the end. When 1+1=2 you don’t continue to debate this till the end of time. When objective truth as researched and established by scholars, theologians, and historians form both the Catholic and Protestant sides confirm the validity and divine authority to the Catholic Church then the debate ends. If not, each year we have new Christian sects, sub-sects springing up like wild and poisonous mushrooms. There is confusion and disarray. Pentecostalists, Baptists, AnaBaptists, Amish, First Baptist Church, Lutherans, Trinitarians, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, what an unholy mess and then every corner street Foursquare Church to say nothing of the variety of Black Churches. Yes, none are so blind as those who refuse to see.
True; but when someone claims that Mary is now in heaven; helping Jesus with His mail; a rational person will say, "Got any PROOF of that?"
Golly!
This sounds a little RACIST!
That's what happens when YOUR chosen religion does such a POOR job of catechizing it's members.
But objective truth does not confirm the validity and authority as you have described, else there would be no problem.
As it stands, you have no proof of validity, nor authority, and a malevolent history that proves quite the opposite! That is where the debate actually ends.
I don't give other denominations a pass either. Many of them adopted the same type of behavior as Rome when they gained power. After centuries of wars and religious cleansing in Europe, its a miracle there are any Believers still there. You certainly did not see the love of Christ on display by many so-called Christians during much of Europe's history. And there is a good reason - the Word was not a priority, the Holy Spirit was ignored. Instead, man's traditions and the musings of theologians took precedent. Consider that for about 1500 years, God's Salvation plan, and the mystery of the Body of Christ, were both readily available in Paul's writing to the Church. When inspired men reintroduced this to the world, the religious authorities declared it heresy! That is how far into error and ignorance religion had devolved. The seeds of the apostasy were sown while Paul was still teaching. (2 Timothy 1:15)
Had Rome listened to some of the Catholic reformers, men who actually studied the Word and received a glimpse of God's Truth, this discussion would not be happening. Instead, they were excommunicated, executed, or fled to save their lives. Instead of measuring beliefs and practices against what theologians think, or what a denomination practices, you should measure it against God's Word. That is THE Truth you seek. The Holy Spirit is the guide, or referee if you will. If you ignore both, you get dead, and often very dangerous religion. The Body of Christ has only one Head. I'll give you a hint, it is not, and will never be, any pastor, theologian, monk, priest, pope, cardinal, or even a blue jay with advanced religious degrees.
You continue to disparage good men of God for absolutely no reason. Billy Graham, who quite possibly has personally led more people to Christ than anyone else in the 20th century, has nothing in common with cult leaders like David Koresh and Jim Jones. You may despise T.D. Jakes, or Joel Osteen, but neither has ordered a genocidal crusade against the Catholic Diocese of Dallas or Houston. And none of those "street preachers" that triggers some irrational hatred inside of you, some of whom may be operating under the call and anointing of God, to my knowledge has ever lamented the fact that some pope wasn't decapitated, as one of your partners did about Martin Luther earlier in this thread. I know you dislike scripture posted here, but something like a speck in the eye versus the log in your own comes to mind.
I posted God's Word to confirm my point, and you refer me to some theologian? How brilliantly appropriate. The last place I look for Truth is from theologians, especially those changing denominations like their underwear. I would have little confidence in someone with such a lack of certainty in their beliefs, and would question the scriptural knowledge, wisdom, and spiritual maturity of someone who puts more faith in a denomination than God and His Word.
Degrees don't impress me - especially advanced religious ones. Neither do they impress Jesus, as he selected fishermen, tax collectors, and even a persecutor of His Body to spread the Word. God looks at the heart and the fruit, as we should for everyone, especially those who would lead. With the anointing of God, even an enemy of the Church can be transformed into the greatest evangelist of all time. If one has the Holy Spirit as a guide, God's Word is so simple a child can understand it. It takes a theologian, or religion, to make it confusing.
There were many great theologians at the time of Jesus, full of knowledge, but they did not even know God, who was standing right in front of them. That is a startling truth that should be a wake up call to all Believers to be extremely vigilant about who or what gets their attention. Of the theologians Jesus said,
Matthew 15:6-9 (AMP)
6 So for the sake of your tradition (the rules handed down by your forefathers), you have set aside the Word of God [depriving it of force and authority and making it of no effect].
7 You pretenders (hypocrites)! Admirably and truly did Isaiah prophesy of you when he said:
8 These people draw near Me with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but their hearts hold off and are far away from Me.
9 Uselessly do they worship Me, for they teach as doctrines the commands of men.
Matthew 15:14 (AMP)
14 Let them alone and disregard them; they are blind guides and teachers. And if a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a ditch.
Jesus words are just as true now, as they were throughout the last 2,000 years. The theologians of His day thought they were doing God's work by killing Jesus and persecuting Believers. They were clinging to their traditions, doctrines, and in the end, missed out on God's plan for them. Some things never change when it comes to the spirit of religion.
The religious ditch is deep and wide. Don't fall into it.
I'm no theologian, but if God says to attend to His Words, and that they are spirit and life, I think that is much more important than the flawed opinions of a confused theologian. One of many good lessons I have learned from Jesus, HE IS THE HEAD of the Body of Christ. You don't turn to the elbow for direction. The knee can't help you. And even if the navel has super awesome degrees, or looks smart in his fancy new religious costume, his advice does not trump what the HEAD says! This is true for every denomination, and every Believer.
Hey look, here are a few more "fish-hunting quotes" that "serve no purpose and are nothing but pure simplistic pieces of text taken from here and there." Instead of dismissing the verses people post, I suggest you actually read them, truly HEARING the Truth God is sharing with you. The words of theologians are ink on paper. The Words of God are Alive, and just as relevant today, as they were 2,000 years ago.
Colossians 2:18-23 (AMP)
18 Let no one defraud you by acting as an umpire and declaring you unworthy and disqualifying you for the prize, insisting on self-abasement and worship of angels, taking his stand on visions [he claims] he has seen, vainly puffed up by his sensuous notions and inflated by his unspiritual thoughts and fleshly conceit,
19 And not holding fast to the Head, from Whom the entire body, supplied and knit together by means of its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
20 If then you have died with Christ to material ways of looking at things and have escaped from the world's crude and elemental notions and teachings of externalism, why do you live as if you still belong to the world? [Why do you submit to rules and regulations?—such as]
21 Do not handle [this], Do not taste [that], Do not even touch [them],
22 Referring to things all of which perish with being used. To do this is to follow human precepts and doctrines.
23 Such [practices] have indeed the outward appearance [that popularly passes] for wisdom, in promoting self-imposed rigor of devotion and delight in self-humiliation and severity of discipline of the body, but they are of no value in checking the indulgence of the flesh (the lower nature). [Instead, they do not honor God but serve only to indulge the flesh.]
And when the objective truth of Scripture confirms and validates the Catholic church's authority, the debate WILL end, but it has not so the debate continues.