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To: zeugma
Sorry to hear that your wife is in the hospital. If we need to table this for a while, so be it. First things first. Just let me know and I’ll hold off till you can re-engage. And, I am sorry that I inflict the sense that I just wish to “lay all those arguments to waste.” My ambition (as best as I can assess) is to dig at the truth irrespective of the outcome. If “free will” is true, then I wish to embrace it. If it is not true, then I want to cling to that which is true. And your formatting was fine.

A few comments to respond. Have not heard of Johann Arndt, but agree that the King’s English is a little thick. CS Lewis is a head full using 20th cent. English. But, he was a strong advocate for the “free will” position and seemed to articulate a number of the best arguments. Your comments along the way help me understand where you might differ (just slightly) with Lewis.

"To me, a world without true free will makes this a clockwork universe, without any real point. It presumes man to be a mere cog, or automaton within machinery that will execute its own pre-defined mechanistic way regardless of what we, as individuals do or do not do. Such a world would be devoid of any real meaning."

Good opening arguments here. They provide a number of opportunities for questions.

"If God is in fact guiding all of the activities of His universe (and we agree that He is a live, thinking being) does this necessarily mean that the universe is ‘mechanistic’?"

That is, does the active management by God require that He behave without any thought, feeling, planning?

"How did you arrive at the opinion that if God were actively directing all elements of His universe, this must mean there is no '…real point'?"

In your first post, you used the analogy of an author holding a book in his hands, being able to see it all played out at one time. Then you said this cannot be the situation since, "…the characters in the book and film are scripted. In our case, we have free will granted to us by His providence." Would the book or film have no "real point" since it is scripted?

"Can we assume that you are in a position to judge the author and decide that because you cannot see a point, there is not one?"

You noted, "I think it’s dangerous to start saying the (that) God would not, or could not do something." Yet, can we then assume that you believe you are in a position to determine that God could not create and manage every detail of a universe without it being, "…devoid of any real meaning."?

You mention that you have recently been reading the Bible regularly. Can you tell us where the Scriptures support your claim that a world without free will would be meaningless?

Your remarks about Judas are very interesting. In particular, the remark about him being, "…deeply worked into the plan from the beginning." This points up the edges of the description the Scriptures express about how subtle, how "deep" the control of God may be. More on Scriptural support later.

"If you are looking at deep space through Hubble’s imaging, and you are noticing the enormity of the mind containing this existence, just how big is the God of Israel, the God of heaven & earth?"

"If we agree that He speaks this into existence with a word, but further admit that, '…He upholds all things by the word of His power.' (Heb. 1), must the model we acquiesce to be wound up and thrown off while He goes fishing?"

"Could the upholding be a continual maintenance? Can you feel being maintained? Must I be able to sense it or therefore I am certain His maintenance does not exist? What exactly does the Scriptures say about “free will” vs. “divine determinism”? Is this not a crucial piece of the puzzle?

Whew! Okay, I'll sit tight till you get an opening.

78 posted on 09/05/2013 11:51:42 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88
Hello again. We're both back at home again. Hoping we can keep it that way, but you never know what life is going to throw at you.

I'll take the second point first, what I was saying that the example given is a metaphor to assist us in envisioning the manner in which God, being outside of time/space could observe the entirety of creation from beginning to end. I said the metaphor breaks down, as almost all metaphors do, and was anticipating objection of the case set forth because actors in a film, or characters in a book are scripted. I do not believe we are scripted in that way, I was pointing out that the metaphor was an imperfect one, and obviously a gross simplification of the universe and our place in it. I don't think we can really fully conceptualize what it would be like without duration, cause or effect.

As to the first, I'd think it was pretty self-explanatory. What would be the purpose of our existence if we had no input or control over our actions? What purpose to you see in a life where you have no control over your actions? Is the Lord bound by this  determinism?

I didn't say that I never do dangerous things. I simply can find no meaning or purpose in a deterministic universe. If I must do A, B, and C, then what does it matter that I did A, B, and C?

Bigger than anything we can possibly imagine.

I'm interested in your answer to these questions.

79 posted on 09/05/2013 7:08:11 PM PDT by zeugma (Is it evil of me to teach my bird to say "here kitty, kitty"?)
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