I see claiming a lack of perspicuity is a recourse of RCA's, while being able to derive meanings from obscure texts of Scripture in order to support Rome.
I agree that veneration of saints fully developed when the heaven became filled with saints, that is at the age of martyrs, -- roughly 2nd century, out of the historical scope of the scripture. The argument here is about the necessary elements of veneration of saints in the Holy Scripture.
TRCs are upset with evangelical veneration of Paul, but the issue is that of RC veneration of saints with its inclusion of prayer to them. These are ultimately inseparable regardless of attempts to deal with them as separate issues.
As for trying to explain the absence of actual support in Scripture for this based upon the lack of subjects in Heaven to pray to, that will not do, as prayer to angels is part of the same doctrine as PTDS, and there were plenty to pray to in OT times as well.
In addition, there were plenty of deceased believers by the time Revelation was written, but not one examples of prayer to any one of them, Stephen and the apostle James included.
I do understand that this absence, as well as in teaching which involves who to pray to, is not a problem for RCs as their real source of assurance of doctrine is Rome herself who channels oral tradition into doctrine. But it seems that in condescension to evangelical types you are trying to show support from Scripture. However, this is counterproductive due to the desperate measures this has been shown to require.
And what did foster PTDS in Heaven is not Scripture exampling or teaching it, but external influence did have a part, as the CE affirms:
A further reinforcement, of the same idea, was derived from the cult of the angels, which, while pre-Christian in its origin, was heartily embraced by the faithful of the sub-Apostolic age. It seems to have been only as a sequel of some such development that men turned to implore the intercession of the Blessed Virgin. — http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15459a.htm
εγω ηλθον ινα ζωην εχωσιν και περισσον εχωσιν (John 10:10) Literally, "I come so that life have and more have", so the afterlife is "more". Deal with it.
Indeed i did deal with it, and your new rendering still does not teach that this abundant life ("more abundantly" is one word meaning abundant, exceeding) is "not yet given them," much less that it refers to acting as heavenly secretaries! Your conclusion simply does not follow. Give it up.
that they are presently dead is a minority position usually held by cults.
Indeed. Thank you. That is the objection I hear most often from Protestant cultists. May they ever come to the liberty of the True Church.
Indeed, and may far more Catholics become part of the body of Christ.
being like something does not necessarily equate to having all their abilities
Well, no, not necessarily, but for the comparison to be even possible the faculties of an angel have to somehow match the faculties of a saint. Also see the "περισσον" above and the ability of a saint to judge the angels.
Extreme extrapolation. There is simply nothing in the meaning of perissos (abundant) that makes this simply refer to the next life, and there is nothing in the words or context about this that even speaks of being able to judge angels, much less being a heavenly object of prayer. Having life abundantly includes the afterlife,and the elect will judge angels, but the Holy Spirit also much details the "so great salvation" and abundant life for believers now, yet shows nothing of them being prayed to in heaven by saints on earth, or the need for a heavenly intercessor btwn God and man for man to mentally pray to, except for Christ.
The saints shall receive their glorified bodies after the resurrection; it is not clear how possession of a body restricts the saint's intellectual ability now.
Regardless, this does not make them heavenly objects of prayers.
The Holy Scripture calls them "prayers", not "memorial". I prefer to believe the Holy Scripture rather than you.
You have evidenced you prefer neither, as RCs must prefer what Rome holds irregardless of anything to the contrary, and must compel Scripture to support it. Rev. 8:3,4 does not teach angels were delivering prayers as if thru proper channels were necessary, much less being prayed to, nor that this was a regular practice, but that before the trumpet judgments an angel was given a golden censer and much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar. The prayers were given Him from God, the source of every good gift, while the memorial aspect refers to why the prayers are offered, not as if they needed a porter.
It does describe the ability to "see clearly", so yes, given that a saint does not need vision to drive to work and back, I'd say, it has to do with the ability of saints to comprehend our affairs and therefore comprehend prayers when addressed to them. See also Hebrews 12:1.
Heb. 12:1 flows from Heb. 11 and the hall of faith, and thus states we are surrounded by a great a cloud of witnesses, as indeed they are in glory. (Heb. 12:23) but this does not support praying to them regardless of what vision Rome constrains, and instead the very next verse exhorts, "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." (Hebrews 12:2) He is the one in Heaven the saints are to look to, and the only one therein whom the Holy Spirit says makes intercession for the saints (besides the Spirit Himself).
As for 1 Corinthians 13:12, that refers to superior perception of Divine things, but still does not teach that saints above hear prayers addressed to them, much less that the Scriptures teach we should make prayers to them (which is the real issue) even if they can (and they may), regardless of what RCs force out of this verse.
Such are desperate attempts in the light of absolutely zero examples of anyone in Heaven being prayed to by believers except the Lord, and the teaching on prayer which places the believer in Christ in the holy of holies therewith to meet directly with God. And arguments from silence, as in speculating what saints might be able to do, does not a doctrine make.
On almost any subject there would be a variety of opinions expressed by the fathers. I would be happy to discuss any particular patristic work with you and see how close to the consensus patrum I am and your sample would be.
Which presume i hold them as deterministic of doctrine, which i stated they were not, and Rome herself judges them more than they judge her. My remarks relate to your invocation of them for support, and not interpreting Scripture except according to the unanimous consent of the fathers.
there were plenty to pray to in OT times
To what end? Sanctification was not available on the regular basis prior to the Church age.
Your conclusion simply does not follow
For people familiar with the concept of eternal life after death being like a treasure in heaven, which St. Paul longed for, it does. for someone with a tin ear for the Holy Scripture, -- I don't know.
Having life abundantly includes the afterlife,and the elect will judge angels, but the Holy Spirit also much details the "so great salvation" and abundant life for believers now
I never denied that; however, see above.
The prayers were given Him from God
They are "prayers of the saints" so they were prayed by the saints. You are ignoring plain scripture, and repeatedly.
this does not support praying to them
At a minimum, it shows that saints are cognizant of our affairs, and so it becomes reasonable to also pray for they witness to Christ.
Trying to talk to someone who does not understand the Scriptural definition of *saint* as Catholics don’t, isn’t going to be productive.
We know that in the NT *saint* = believer.
EVERY believer is a saint. They become one as soon as they put their trust in Christ and are born again.