Posted on 08/15/2013 7:03:11 PM PDT by annalex
Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:
Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)
What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:
Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)
|
| The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source |
Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.
I and Caww will decide between ourselves whether or not we include each other thank you very much.
>>You should have the consideration not to include Caww in your posts to me.<<
>>Note especially St. Augustine and Theophilactus who makes the distinction clear:<<
Um, dude, it’s Catholics that use those fellers as scripture. Others not so much. If you think those dudes were infallible wearing their Dagon the fish god priest hats that’s your business but don’t hold them up as the source to go to when trying to impress me. It ain’t happenin.
>>Note especially St. Augustine and Theophilactus who makes the distinction clear:<<
Yep! But I also know that when Catholics say words they mean something different then when scripture says them.
>>I would advise you and any Protestant not to get too deep into the mystical aspect of the Holy Trinity.<<
You can advise till shep has her pups but don’t expect me to take advise from anyone who follows the RCC.
>>You religion is based on crudity of thought.<<
Now what religion is that? Do you presume to know what “my religion” is?
>>Do not go there before you become Catholic and gain the indwelling of the Holy Ghost yourself.<<
What arrogance! I’ll believe what scripture says over any member of the RCC cult.
THAT'S funny.
How can you claim that Catholics have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit when they don't even believe Jesus stays in them after Communion if they sin.
You either have Christ in you and with it the indwelling of the Spirit, or you don't.
If Christ can leave you, the Holy Spirit can, too.
On again, off again salvation, completely works based.
And even when they claim to have the indwelling it’s only a little bit of the indwelling because the magesterium gets the full indwelling but the lay members don’t.! Go figure.
Luke 11:9-13 And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 11 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
Ephesians 1:7-10 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
I just want to make sure of something, since it is possible I am just missing a subtle point of your argument and am therefore misunderstanding you. When I first saw your post, I had not been following the line of conversation between you and the Papist, and so it struck me as possibly denying the Trinity and Christ’s divinity. If I am mistaken, please forgive me. But to be sure, you do affirm that Jesus Christ is God, correct?
How do you KNOW this?
So?
>> “How do you KNOW this?” <<
.
Because they all contain broken Hebrew puns, or other Hebrew colloquialisms caused by translating from Hebrew to another language without understanding that it was a pun.
So?
So the puns that he sprinkled generously in his speech end up not making any sense after translation to Aramaic, and then to Greek.
The ludicrous nomination of Peter to be ‘pope’ arose out of one of them.
Absolutely. If He weren’t we would have no hope.
I discuss the Holy Scripture, not the English translations of it.
Of course; I just passed along to you that I got this request, and it is difficult form me to always remember whom to exclude when responding.
you think those dudes were infallible
No, they are not infallible, St. Augustine in particular, however on your question they provided a better three answers than I could so I quoted them.
arrogance!
I regret to have upset you.
Excellent, that’s all I wanted to hear!
If you want eternal life with Christ it’s best to listen to Jesus and the apostles than man.
You have yet to discuss any scripture here.
You have mocked much scripture, but mocking is not discussion.
I had to call you on your total missrepresentation of the word “Lord,” an English word, that you completely misunderstood.
I am fine and listen to all fellow Catholics, especially fathers and doctors of the Holy Church. God bless you.
LOL. Once more: the Gospel of Luke calls Our Lady "η μητηρ του κυριου" (Luke 1:43), the same word as God is called in the Greek Septuagint for God. If St. Elizabeth wanted to say "the mother of the Messiah", she would have said so and St. Luke, inspired by the Holy Ghost, would have written "τον χριστον", "of the Christ". However, it is written "του κυριου", the same "κυριος" also spoken about in Luke 1:38,45,46 and the same word used throughout the Bible to signify not Messiah but God. I read the Gospel as written, and take it wholly inerrant and God-breathed. Try doing the same and you, too will be Catholic and return on the road of your salvation that you once walked after baptism, if you ever had a proper baptism. God bless you.
Well, then I surely hope when Jesus asks you can tell Him where you thought your salvation came from.
The true gospel of Luke can only be the original in Hebrew.
Corrupted translations do not count, except to the pagans that created and use them.
The Greek is definitely not an inspired text. Agreement with the ancient scriptures is important in determining validity, and any text that calls any female God is written by satan.
BTW, the term ‘catholic’ was first used by Shimon the sorcerer, the one that was worshipped by the catholics.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.