Posted on 06/13/2013 10:02:02 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
Probably so. I wasn’t there.
Ok. Thanks. :)
This is a well written article, and clearly states a particular point of view.
However, as has been written greatly on this forum previously, the practice of relying solely on Scripture is found wanting, as the canon of Scripture can’t reference itself.
The cannon of Scripture was defined by the Roman Catholic Church, there is no dispute in that. It can’t reference itself, as only individual books existed (except the Pentatuch). There was no defined cannon to reference, prior to the 400s.
While I appreciate learning different points of view, it is worth noting that without Apostolic Succession, there is a lack of authentic Authority with which to settle disputes.
Recall the first major dispute was settled by Peter, in Rome, and not by the canon of Scripture.
Just my $.02
You did not read my post closely. I stated I was aware that the Donatist position was rejected. I did not state I accepted the doctrine they promulgated. I merely brought up the question of apostasy through wide spread sin in the church leadership. When one finds out that ones individual priest is engaging in anal intercourse with a twelve year old boy one is horrified but agrees the church survives. If one finds out it is widespread and the leadership participates and covers up the wrongdoing over an extended period of time; that I submit is quite a different set of facts. Apostasy can happen, indeed Christian apostasy is predicted. Of course, apostasy applies to Protestant ministers. I would not join many “mainstream” Protestant branches that have accepted Sodomite “marriage.” Indeed, St. Paul advised us to “come out from among them.” Which the early Protestants in fact did by reason of widespread church sin.
====Ok, and what happened when the last of these people died? Did the church die with them?
No The Church continued on as it had before with the Head of the Church - Chirst and the Elders (Bishops) and Decons Continuing to do the task as given them by the Apostles.
====Or did the Apostle appoint others to carry on their mission the way that Christ appointed them?
No Record of Apostles appointing any others to be Apostles save Mathias in the New Testament.
====The Apostles have the authority to select their successors. And so on and so forth.
And the only recorded time they did they used requirements as stated in Acts 1 21-22
====We look at Irenaeus, and one of the things he talks about is having a list of bishops - and how the continuity from one bishop to another is important.
Bishops - Elders are not Apostles the means by which a Elder - Bishop - Overseer is chosen does not have the requirements of an Apostle.
====What we dont see is the argument that Alex is making here. This is significant. If it were so, we would see it then. But we do not.
====Were supposed to believe that a Church that has no existence whatsoever before John Knox has it right, while the Church that was in existence prior to Knox has it wrong.
Mr Knox opinion on the matter is not relevant really, as the New Testament quite clearly states when Christ’s Church was begun. As well as laying out the positions and their requirements.
====Does that make much sense to you?
“I merely brought up the question of apostasy through wide spread sin in the church leadership.”
And I am answering your point. You are wrong. The sacraments are efficacious, even if the priest sins. If it were that the sacraments were dependent upon the priest, none of the sacraments would work.
Look at my example of Vicky Gene Robinson. He’s not Catholic. He’s an episcopalian.
You state that someone who is in a Church that has gone so far as to teach that homosexuality is not only not a sin, but is virtuous behaviour should leave, correct?
“Apostasy can happen, indeed Christian apostasy is predicted.”
I agree - look at Vicky Gene Robinson as exhibit A of Apostasy.
“Which the early Protestants in fact did by reason of widespread church sin.”
So what you are saying is that Protestants today who remain in the ECUSA, PCUSA, UMC, the ELCA should leave and join the Catholic church.
See, what you are confusing is sinful behaviour with Apostasy. Apostasy has to do with doctrine, not behaviour. If the Church were to stop being the Church because of sinful behaviour, it never would have lasted long at all.
You speak of the Great Apostasy, and we are in it today - when Protestant churches of all stripes have chosen to bless homosexuality.
You are very right sir - Protestants should leave these churches and become Catholic.
again...wrong questions...and BTW twisting what I stated.
“No The Church continued on as it had before”
So the Apostles selected Bishops, Bishops selected other Bishops. There is historical continuity from the time of the Apostles to now, correct?
“And the only recorded time they did they used requirements as stated in Acts 1 21-22”
Yet, you just said yourself. The Church continued on after the Apostles. The Apostles appointing their successors the Bishops, who had the authority to select their own bishops. Correct?
“Bishops - Elders are not Apostles the means by which a Elder - Bishop - Overseer is chosen does not have the requirements of an Apostle.”
Then the Church died with St. John.
“Mr Knox opinion on the matter is not relevant really”
Alex’s position is that Knox’s definition is the correct definition of apostolicity. Ergo, his position *is* relevent to this argument.
If Knox is wrong about this claim - then we have to go back to the core question here - what is apostolicity? Who has it? Why does the Church dating back to the first century has it when the church dating to the 16th does not?
“as the New Testament quite clearly states when Christs Church was begun.”
Which was in the first century. Which church today is this church?
Answer the question please.
Are you or are you not in unity with fellow protestan Bishop Vicky Gene Robinson?
You are factually incorrect. While the numbers vary by sources, there are anywhere from 16 to 30,000 different Protestant denominations, individually led. They also espouse differing theology and are not unified.
The Roman Catholic Church consists of a total of 23 Rites, often called Churches. The are all in communion with the Holy See, at Rome. There is no division, merely variations developed through time and location. A person can be fully Syrio-Malabar and fully Catholic, as that is an accepted Rite of the Roman Catholic Church. The 22 Eastern Rites were called by Bl. John Paul II as the “Other Lung” of the Catholic Church.
Roman Catholicism is focused on Christ. The remainder of your sentence is incorrect.
No, he didn't.
Ok, so all protestants aren’t in union with one another.
How does one determine which protestants are in union with one another?
Do I need a flowchart?
Those may be good questions, but IMO you've mistaken me for the author of the article. It's not my definition as I'm not the author, therefore I can't answer them for you. I would direct those questions to the OPC website (I gave a link in post #1), and let the author speak for himself.
Ok, thank you.
Sure it does since they all believe differently.
The Catholic denomination(sic)
The Catholic Church isn't a denomination.
there are also many branches within the catholic denomination just as with Protestants.
Incorrect. Different Rites not different denominations.
Your post exposes your deficient acumen on the topic which comes as no surprise.
There are believers in the catholic denominations as well as the Protestant....the unity comes entirely thru their relationship in and with Christ Jesus...not the membership of any denomination...not the church affiliation...these are simply “the gathering” places and among.
I am not in the business of validating or not your comments or questions. However, it is a wonderful thing to know Christ and who we are accountable to...splitting hairs is senseless when in reality it all boils down to the person Of Christ.
I am always amazed in these arguments that no one recognizes Mark’s work in Africa and the antiquity of both the Coptic and the Ethiopian churches. In fact both the Eithopean and the Coptic churches may predate Rome.
And then there was Thomas in India ...
We argue from a unique Western perspective.
Thank you Catherine of Arogon....you are paying attention....but then we do know the tactics so often played and can name those tunes in one note...”there’s nothing new under the sun”.
“the unity comes entirely thru their relationship in and with Christ Jesus”
So how does one determine this? Do you hand out candy to your favourite Christians?
You need to make sure you quote folks correctly.
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