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Catholics, Protestants, and Immaculate Mary
The Catholic Thing ^ | December 8, 2012 | David G. Bonagura, Jr.

Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer

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To: annalex; daniel1212
You stated in that post. >> the word ordinarily meaning "elder" came to denote "priest".<<

So I was spot on in that the contention is still being made that “elder” is the same as “priest” but that’s only in the minds of the Catholics who have been erroneously taught by the RCC in attempting (obviously successfully where Catholics are concerned) to usurp the priesthood of Christ here on earth. That’s the whole contention of this discussion is it not? The contention that there is a hierchy in the Catholic Church that scripture did not sanction?

4,681 posted on 01/06/2013 1:48:54 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: narses

What translation are you using? It’s really sort of flat, completely lacking in the pacing, rhythm and poetic grandeur of the King James.

It’s functional enough I suppose, with little to quibble about as far as meaning outside of “brightness” instead of glory which carries a whole ‘nother shade of meaning beyond that, but the inspiration just isn’t there. It’s one of my personal favorites in scripture, from both a purely literary standpoint as well as a spiritual one.

Have you ever pondered the meaning of it at length, narses? Natural bodies likened unto seeds, with so many kinds of bodies listed and compared?


4,682 posted on 01/06/2013 1:51:41 PM PST by RegulatorCountry
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To: CynicalBear

“The contention that there is a hierchy in the Catholic Church that scripture did not sanction?”

The Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, the Anglican Church and to a large degree the Lutheran. But then you have contempt for ALL “organized” religion, right CB? You have stated so many times.

Do you believe that Our Lord left us NO hierarchy? No leadership?


4,683 posted on 01/06/2013 1:52:51 PM PST by narses
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To: narses

Do you not know the meaning of obfuscation? The definition includes no reference to a lie. You ere again!


4,684 posted on 01/06/2013 1:53:08 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear

“The contention that there is a hierchy {SIC} in the Catholic Church that scripture did not sanction?”

The Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, the Anglican Church and to a large degree the Lutheran. But then you have contempt for ALL “organized” religion, right CB? You have stated so many times.

Do you believe that Our Lord left us NO hierarchy? No leadership?


4,685 posted on 01/06/2013 1:53:08 PM PST by narses
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To: narses
>> Do you believe that Our Lord left us NO hierarchy? No leadership?<<

Not in the context the RCC would have you believe. Christ is our High Priest, not some carnal guy in a funny hat. No priests were sanctioned in the New Testament, and no hierarchy other than the local elders in each local assembly of believers with scripture and the Holy Spirit to guide them and Christ indwelling each of those in the assembly who have accepted Christ as their only savior.

4,686 posted on 01/06/2013 1:59:37 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
"The definition includes no reference to a lie."
Obfuscation (or beclouding) is the hiding of intended meaning in communication, making communication confusing, wilfully ambiguous, and harder to interpret.
Wrong. But not a surprise that you want to redefine even simple words. Your odd belief system is so out of the mainstream, nothing you say surprises me. After all, you said:

“All of the Lent and Easter abomination is pagan and God clearly condemned it in scripture.”

“God doesn’t smile down on people who celebrate Easter.”

4,687 posted on 01/06/2013 2:02:31 PM PST by narses
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To: CynicalBear; daniel1212
“elder” is the same as “priest”

Both "elder" in Protestant translations and "priest" in Catholic translations refer to πρεσβυτερος more or less consistently. My point is that πρεσβυτερος appears functionally in situations a Catholic priest finds himself today. 525.

The discussion we are having now with you is about authority of bishops, not priests; that is in focus in Acts 20:28. The corresponding Greek word is επισκοπος; that credible Protestant translations render as "overseer", even though again, functionally and etymologically it is "bishop".

That’s the whole contention of this discussion is it not?

Not. I do not argue over words. I hate to be rude, but I am not your secretary. Can you please prepare your own briefs if you still wish to argue around?

4,688 posted on 01/06/2013 2:07:12 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: narses

Both cannot be true. The Council of Lyons:

“We believe in the true resurrection of this flesh that we now possess”

The apostle of Christ, Paul, 1 Cor. 15:44: “It is sown a a natural (physical) body, it is raised up a spiritual body”

Paul contrasts the physical body of flesh and blood with the spiritual body to be given and sums up in vs. 50,

“Flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom”.

Which shall it be? For me, Paul, not the Council.


4,689 posted on 01/06/2013 2:09:17 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: CynicalBear; Reaganite Republican; Clintons Are White Trash; HerrBlucher; mgist; raptor22; ...
CynicalBear wrote: " No priests were sanctioned in the New Testament... "

Again, nothing you say surprises me anymore. That you claim such arrant nonsense may amaze others, but to me it is just another day of watching you torture Scripture to fit your own odd cultic worldview. For the edification of the many Christians who are curious, of COURSE the New Testament, and the Old, define a Priesthood.

Where in the New Testament are "priests" mentioned?

The English word "priest" is derived from the Greek word presbuteros, which is commonly rendered into Bible English as "elder" or "presbyter." The ministry of Catholic priests is that of the presbyters mentioned in the New Testament (Acts 15:6, 23). The Bible says little about the duties of presbyters, but it does reveal they functioned in a priestly capacity.

They were ordained by the laying on of hands (1 Tm 4:14, 5:22), they preached and taught the flock (1 Tm 5:17), and they administered sacraments (Jas 5:13-15). These are the essential functions of the priestly office, so wherever the various forms of presbuteros appear--except, of course, in instances which pertain to the Jewish elders (Mt 21:23, Acts 4:23)--the word may rightly be translated as "priest" instead of "elder" or "presbyter."

Episcopos arises from two words, epi (over) and skopeo (to see), and it means literally "an overseer": We translate it as "bishop." The King James Version renders the office of overseer, episkopen, as "bishopric" (Acts 1:20). The role of the episcopos is not clearly defined in the New Testament, but by the beginning of the second century it had obtained a fixed meaning. There is early evidence of this refinement in ecclesiastical nomenclature in the writings of Ignatius of Antioch (d. A.D. 107), who wrote at length of the authority of bishops as distinct from presbyters and deacons (Epistle to the Magnesians 6:1, 13:1-2; Epistle to the Trallians 2:1-3; Epistle to the Smyrnaeans 8:1-2).

The New Testament tendency to use episcopos and presbuteros interchangeably is similar to the contemporary Protestant use of the term "minister" to denote various offices, both ordained and unordained (senior minister, music minister, youth minister). Similarly, the term diakonos is rendered both as "deacon" and as "minister" in the Bible, yet in Protestant churches the office of deacon is clearly distinguished from and subordinate to the office of minister.

In Acts 20:17-38 the same men are called presbyteroi (v. 17) and episcopoi (v. 28). Presbuteroi is used in a technical sense to identify their office of ordained leadership. Episcopoi is used in a non-technical sense to describe the type of ministry they exercised. This is how the Revised Standard Version renders the verses: "And from Miletus he [Paul] . . . called for the elders [presbuteroi]of the church. And when they came to him, he said to them . . . 'Take heed to yourselves and all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you guardians [episcopoi], to feed the church of the Lord.'"

In other passages it's clear that although men called presbuteroi ruled over individual congregations (parishes), the apostles ordained certain men, giving them authority over multiple congregations (dioceses), each with its own presbyters. These were endowed with the power to ordain additional presbyters as needed to shepherd the flock and carry on the work of the gospel. Titus and Timothy were two of those early episcopoi and clearly were above the office of presbuteros. They had the authority to select, ordain, and govern other presbyters, as is evidenced by Paul's instructions: "This is why I left you in Crete . . . that you might appoint elders in every town as I directed you" (Ti 1:5; cf. 1 Tm 5:17-22).

4,690 posted on 01/06/2013 2:11:07 PM PST by narses
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To: CynicalBear; Reaganite Republican; Clintons Are White Trash; HerrBlucher; mgist; raptor22; ...
CynicalBear wrote: " No priests were sanctioned in the New Testament... "

Again, nothing you say surprises me anymore. That you claim such arrant nonsense may amaze others, but to me it is just another day of watching you torture Scripture to fit your own odd cultic worldview. For the edification of the many Christians who are curious, of COURSE the New Testament, and the Old, define a Priesthood.

Where in the New Testament are "priests" mentioned?

The English word "priest" is derived from the Greek word presbuteros, which is commonly rendered into Bible English as "elder" or "presbyter." The ministry of Catholic priests is that of the presbyters mentioned in the New Testament (Acts 15:6, 23). The Bible says little about the duties of presbyters, but it does reveal they functioned in a priestly capacity.

They were ordained by the laying on of hands (1 Tm 4:14, 5:22), they preached and taught the flock (1 Tm 5:17), and they administered sacraments (Jas 5:13-15). These are the essential functions of the priestly office, so wherever the various forms of presbuteros appear--except, of course, in instances which pertain to the Jewish elders (Mt 21:23, Acts 4:23)--the word may rightly be translated as "priest" instead of "elder" or "presbyter."

Episcopos arises from two words, epi (over) and skopeo (to see), and it means literally "an overseer": We translate it as "bishop." The King James Version renders the office of overseer, episkopen, as "bishopric" (Acts 1:20). The role of the episcopos is not clearly defined in the New Testament, but by the beginning of the second century it had obtained a fixed meaning. There is early evidence of this refinement in ecclesiastical nomenclature in the writings of Ignatius of Antioch (d. A.D. 107), who wrote at length of the authority of bishops as distinct from presbyters and deacons (Epistle to the Magnesians 6:1, 13:1-2; Epistle to the Trallians 2:1-3; Epistle to the Smyrnaeans 8:1-2).

The New Testament tendency to use episcopos and presbuteros interchangeably is similar to the contemporary Protestant use of the term "minister" to denote various offices, both ordained and unordained (senior minister, music minister, youth minister). Similarly, the term diakonos is rendered both as "deacon" and as "minister" in the Bible, yet in Protestant churches the office of deacon is clearly distinguished from and subordinate to the office of minister.

In Acts 20:17-38 the same men are called presbyteroi (v. 17) and episcopoi (v. 28). Presbuteroi is used in a technical sense to identify their office of ordained leadership. Episcopoi is used in a non-technical sense to describe the type of ministry they exercised. This is how the Revised Standard Version renders the verses: "And from Miletus he [Paul] . . . called for the elders [presbuteroi]of the church. And when they came to him, he said to them . . . 'Take heed to yourselves and all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you guardians [episcopoi], to feed the church of the Lord.'"

In other passages it's clear that although men called presbuteroi ruled over individual congregations (parishes), the apostles ordained certain men, giving them authority over multiple congregations (dioceses), each with its own presbyters. These were endowed with the power to ordain additional presbyters as needed to shepherd the flock and carry on the work of the gospel. Titus and Timothy were two of those early episcopoi and clearly were above the office of presbuteros. They had the authority to select, ordain, and govern other presbyters, as is evidenced by Paul's instructions: "This is why I left you in Crete . . . that you might appoint elders in every town as I directed you" (Ti 1:5; cf. 1 Tm 5:17-22).

4,691 posted on 01/06/2013 2:12:09 PM PST by narses
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To: count-your-change

“Both cannot be true.”

Yes they can. Sorry that you are confused by that basic truth.

The Fourth Lateran Council (1215), infallibly defined that at the second coming Jesus “will judge the living and the dead, to render to every person according to his works, both to the reprobate and to the elect. All of them will rise with their own bodies, which they now wear, so as to receive according to their deserts, whether these be good or bad [Rom. 2:6–11]” (constitution 1).

The righteous, they will be transformed into a glorified state, freed from suffering and pain, and enabled to do many of the amazing things Jesus could do with his glorified body (cf. 1 Cor. 15:35–44, 1 John 3:2).


4,692 posted on 01/06/2013 2:14:08 PM PST by narses
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To: count-your-change

“So.....of course they’re alive!?!”

Do you c also concede that others are Alive in Heaven?


4,693 posted on 01/06/2013 2:16:12 PM PST by narses
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To: annalex

See 4691.


4,694 posted on 01/06/2013 2:17:08 PM PST by narses
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To: narses
The words of the councils you quote contradict what Paul said in the Scriptures you quote as I've shown here yet this council is called “infallible” in its contradiction of a truly infallible source, Paul.

Either flesh and blood goes to heaven or it doesn't. Paul says no, a statement you haven't really said much about. Is Paul wrong? Is there another way to understand Paul's words?

Or is the creed and the councils wrong? Paul or the councils?

4,695 posted on 01/06/2013 2:24:48 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: narses

What others? Christ, God? angels? What others?


4,696 posted on 01/06/2013 2:27:26 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: metmom

Yes, that sure is a papal paraphrase, and all the volume of material posted can only support believers praying for each other, which does not involve the ability to spiritual actually hear multitudes of prayers from the hearts of believers, and testifies to the destitution of support for PTDS. And what is needed and is conspicuously absent is,

1. just one example, among the multitude of prayers in the Bible, where anyone besides heathen (Jer. 44:19) prayed to or addressed anyone else in heaven but the Lord.

2. any place where exhortations, commands or instruction or descriptions on prayer directs believers to pray to departed saints or angels in heaven. (”i.e. “After this manner pray, Our mother, who art in heaven...”)..

3. any place where any insufficiency exists in Christ regarding immediacy, ability, or compassion that would require or advantage another intercessor in heaven between Christ and man, besides the Holy Spirit. (Ex. 25:22; Eph. 2:18; Heb. 2:18; 4:15,16; 7:25; 10:19-22; etc.)

4. any place where believers in Christ are not provided direct access to God in heaven, that having “boldness to enter into the holiest” (Heb. 10:19) means one may choose to meet a type of secretary rather than directly having access by one Spirit unto the Father. (Eph. 2:18)

5. where departed souls in heaven are taking prayer requests addressed to them.

6. where any communication between believers on earth and heavenly beings besides God took place apart from a personal visitation, in heaven or by angels coming to earth.

More: http://www.peacebyjesus.net/ptds.html


4,697 posted on 01/06/2013 2:27:45 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: annalex; daniel1212
>>Both "elder" in Protestant translations and "priest" in Catholic translations refer to πρεσβυτερος more or less consistently.<<

Therein lies the problem as I see it. First of all using only the Greek letters is unfair to the readers and in addition I do believe the rules around here state that if you use a foreign language you also need to include the English tranalation.

Πρεσβυτερος (Presbuteros)
elder, of age, the elder of two people advanced in life, an elder, a senior forefathers a term of rank or office among the Jews members of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from elderly men) of those who in separate cities managed public affairs and administered justice among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably the twenty four members of the heavenly Sanhedrin or court seated on thrones around the throne of God

The function of the elder in a Protestant church is not the same as the priest in the Catholic Church. There is no “Protestant translation” or “Catholic translation” or at least shouldn’t be. There is only a translation of what the word means. That’s why I pointed back to the post of daniel1212. The word “priest” in scripture has a specific meaning and it’s not used in the New Testament as an office in the church. So I would contend that you are indeed “arguing over words” and I would suggest to justify the use of the word by the RCC.

4,698 posted on 01/06/2013 2:29:37 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: count-your-change

“Or is the creed and the councils wrong? Paul or the councils?”

Nope, both are correct. Sorry that you cannot understand that.


4,699 posted on 01/06/2013 2:31:53 PM PST by narses
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To: Elsie; metmom; boatbums

Not only, but the OT example often invoked for praying to “our mother who art in Heaven, was one in which the request was refused and resulted in the death of the supplicant that day! “ (1 Kings 2:13-25)


4,700 posted on 01/06/2013 2:32:30 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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